Wilson Audio XLF

[barryr1]

I'm really curious about the tweak noted here. The use of stillpoints/HRS and 45lbs of damping...really? Can you tell me more about your perception of the magnitude of change in the dynamics. It appears from the photo that you have placed this weight right on top of the "can" behind the resistor punch board. Is that correct. ...and how did you come up with this idea...wow

Also curious about the magnitude of the result from the use of the silver isolation wraps on the inter speaker cabling. It sounds extreme but I'm listening

thanks

 

[microstrip]

Hi Lloyd

just got it before Xmas, so early days. was waiting impatiently for a used one to come up in Australia - never happened - thru an audio buddy, one came along that had been recently updated to HD status in Europe in 240 volts so took the plunge. the most un SS like hifi piece I have ever heard - truly organic with that bass control Dan is famous for. I luv the tone controls to insert whenever I feel the desire depending on the recording.

It matches my S250 that was upgraded from a S200. This will keep me happy for a while

Congratulations, Shane. The HD upgrade jumped the performance of the Momentum preamplifer to a point that for the first time I also started dreaming about a SS preamplifier. The absence of noise and artifacts coupled with a liquidity in the voices I associate with the typical OTL sound. Unfortunately I am not prepared to spend such amount in a preamplifier.

 

[LL21]

I'm really curious about the tweak noted here. The use of stillpoints/HRS and 45lbs of damping...really? Can you tell me more about your perception of the magnitude of change in the dynamics. It appears from the photo that you have placed this weight right on top of the "can" behind the resistor punch board. Is that correct. ...and how did you come up with this idea...wow

Also curious about the magnitude of the result from the use of the silver isolation wraps on the inter speaker cabling. It sounds extreme but I'm listening

thanks

Hi Barry1,

One of the observations I made of the original X1s as I got to know them over 10 years was that the exterior structure while excellent (particularly for its time) was not nearly as rigid as later generation Wilsons.

As a result, I found that selective focus on isolation, some [very careful/limited] areas of damping could help reduce the sense of 'shimmer' I sensed over time was in some way related to the cabinets. Of course, the design of the cabinets was always made with the knowledge that (being adjustable) they were going to move...and DW was a true engineer and knew his trade...nevertheless, I liked the selective changes I made to the speaker and they served us well for those years.

Fast forward to the XLF, and we looked at making a few of those same changes...knowing a number would not work (they did not). However, a few stuck:

1. By placing super-heavy Artesania dampers on top of the HRS over what is (I believe) where some of the crossover networks sit...I did find a very gentle sense of more focus/denser notes and again less sense of 'shimmer' from the music. The idea came from previous experience where isolation often helped elsewhere in the system...sometimes I have found smaller parts tend to be more sensitive to vibration - resistors, wiring, power supplies. And that is essentially where this sits relative to a lot of the other parts of the speaker which are generally heroically well built (and damped).

2. The Entreq wraps around the upper cables 'appear' to enable a slightly purer treble note (not more extended...just purer)

These are tweaks I made over time...I do not think they are must haves...but I like them. It takes time to get the weight right...too little and we felt we were wasting our time...but at that weight, it started to create that sense of quiet/focus/density very gently.

3. The Stillpoints U5s have been replaced by U7s (which I have heard a rumor from an industry professional were co-designed with Andy Payor of Rockport Technologies for whom I have a tremendous amount of respect). The U7s presented a surprisingly less treble focused clarity which the U5s did...more balanced and definitely cleaned up bass interactions with the floor even more.

Overall, the XLFs looks/feel far more solidly built than the original X1s which were from July 1994 (no surprises there)...and thus, these changes are all very nice incremental improvements for me. I would not undo them for sure. But I would not suggest anyone feel the burning need to do these unless they feel the rest of the system has a fully matured sound that you really like and are now simply trying to hone while still maintaining its primary character. Hope that helps.

 

[barryr1]

Hi Barry1,

One of the observations I made of the original X1s as I got to know them over 10 years was that the exterior structure while excellent (particularly for its time) was not nearly as rigid as later generation Wilsons.

As a result, I found that selective focus on isolation, some [very careful/limited] areas of damping could help reduce the sense of 'shimmer' I sensed over time was in some way related to the cabinets. Of course, the design of the cabinets was always made with the knowledge that (being adjustable) they were going to move...and DW was a true engineer and knew his trade...nevertheless, I liked the selective changes I made to the speaker and they served us well for those years.

Fast forward to the XLF, and we looked at making a few of those same changes...knowing a number would not work (they did not). However, a few stuck:

1. By placing super-heavy Artesania dampers on top of the HRS over what is (I believe) where some of the crossover networks sit...I did find a very gentle sense of more focus/denser notes and again less sense of 'shimmer' from the music. The idea came from previous experience where isolation often helped elsewhere in the system...sometimes I have found smaller parts tend to be more sensitive to vibration - resistors, wiring, power supplies. And that is essentially where this sits relative to a lot of the other parts of the speaker which are generally heroically well built (and damped).

2. The Entreq wraps around the upper cables 'appear' to enable a slightly purer treble note (not more extended...just purer)

These are tweaks I made over time...I do not think they are must haves...but I like them. It takes time to get the weight right...too little and we felt we were wasting our time...but at that weight, it started to create that sense of quiet/focus/density very gently.

3. The Stillpoints U5s have been replaced by U7s (which I have heard a rumor from an industry professional were co-designed with Andy Payor of Rockport Technologies for whom I have a tremendous amount of respect). The U7s presented a surprisingly less treble focused clarity which the U5s did...more balanced and definitely cleaned up bass interactions with the floor even more.

Overall, the XLFs looks/feel far more solidly built than the original X1s which were from July 1994 (no surprises there)...and thus, these changes are all very nice incremental improvements for me. I would not undo them for sure. But I would not suggest anyone feel the burning need to do these unless they feel the rest of the system has a fully matured sound that you really like and are now simply trying to hone while still maintaining its primary character. Hope that helps.

Thank you. I get it. Yes… my first set… MAXXs were definitely not on the same caliber of construction as these monsters but still had a great sound. I think a system always has room to grow. I occasionally will hear sounds in the recording that i am convinced are real but less each day After decades of listening to progressively better systems of every type and playing a little guitar and drums along the way i key on different things. My palette continues to change. I hear different cues to reality. I hear really great sometimes amazing sounds but the microphone is still between me and the music I listen to certain recordings and i am blown away with the general overall sound But I keep trying to find ways to clean those specs off of the glass that keep it from sounding really real. Thank you for your dedication and insights. B

 

[Aussienut]

For those interested in the potential impact of changing the resistors on the XLF it is well worthwhile. The factory accessory kit came with a full set of replacement resistors, so this first change had no cost impact. Well I am very pleased with the results. Some of the improved factors include greater insight into the details around notes and overall coherence of the presentation. Are the changes dramatic?. No, as the presentation is already exceptional in my opinion. But this just demonstrates at this level for most high quality audio equipment in daily use, components can deteriorate over time and it they can be refreshed, then period updates are worth the effort and investment.
I will be changing at least the tweeter and midrange resistors more often going forward as the original resistor set had been in service for several years.
Also, I have recently received a set of WA Acoustic Diodes to use on the XLFs from the Australian distributor. However, they did not have the required XLF adaptor threads in stock They have been ordered so I am now eagerly waiting for these to be dispatched and delivered from WA. I’ll provide details on the outcome in the weeks to come.

 

[DoctorWhy]

Hey Ron,

Thanks...we still have a ground loop hum...not sure why now that the Zanden, Robert Koda, Tripoint, Sub and Gryphon are ALL plugged into the Torus. Really odd.

That said, due to the Robert Koda Ground Float switch and a Jensen Sub-isolator for the Velodyne, the ground loop hum goes from 65db (ie, super loud) to 35db (right in front of the cone) whereas the ambient room noise is 25-29db so a much more manageable result...but would still love to get it super-quiet.

The good news is that with this now in manageable shape...we can FINALLY get around to finetuning the XLFs which have not been calibrated since they were installed last summer...we will be waiting a few more months most likely until things are safer. But at least we have finally reached that point!

And THEN it is on to exploration of super-subs!

Hi. I had massive problems with the much larger Torus AVR-2 Bal 60. This was converting a dedicated 240V line to 120 V. Didn't improve SQ and had constant "hum" which sounded like a ground loop. Tried everything to fix it to no avail. Then, one of the circuits arced, causing one outlet to have burn marks. I demanded a full refund and sent it back to Torus, ( BTW This was sold under the Bryson name because my dealer sold Bryston. (Not anymore.) The only difference between the Torus version and the Bryston version is the faceplate, but in this case the only available faceplate said "Torus Power." So Bryston collects a $1000 and contributed not one dollar to the product. Bryston then screwed my dealer, Audio Salon near Miami, by refusing to give him his money back. He could only obtain a credit.}
This forced me to go back to my cheap, old Richard Gray Power company SubStation, which did/does not sound worse than the Torus. This Friday I will be performing a definitive power upgrade utilizing a 25 kVA industrial transformer made by Controlled Power in Michigan. (Same one used by Capital Records.) This 500 LB monster will live in the garage and be connected to a sub panel near my Stereo with 4 AWG wire. I will then run 8 AWG to 5 Furutech premium duplex outlets. This design was based on advice From Vince Galbo based on previous successful implementations.
-Rob

BTW, I also obtained my XLF's in late 2020. I guess we can both thank the XVX.

 

[LL21]

Hi. I had massive problems with the much larger Torus AVR-2 Bal 60. This was converting a dedicated 240V line to 120 V. Didn't improve SQ and had constant "hum" which sounded like a ground loop. Tried everything to fix it to no avail. Then, one of the circuits arced, causing one outlet to have burn marks. I demanded a full refund and sent it back to Torus, ( BTW This was sold under the Bryson name because my dealer sold Bryston. (Not anymore.) The only difference between the Torus version and the Bryston version is the faceplate, but in this case the only available faceplate said "Torus Power." So Bryston collects a $1000 and contributed not one dollar to the product. Bryston then screwed my dealer, Audio Salon near Miami, by refusing to give him his money back. He could only obtain a credit.}
This forced me to go back to my cheap, old Richard Gray Power company SubStation, which did/does not sound worse than the Torus. This Friday I will be performing a definitive power upgrade utilizing a 25 kVA industrial transformer made by Controlled Power in Michigan. (Same one used by Capital Records.) This 500 LB monster will live in the garage and be connected to a sub panel near my Stereo with 4 AWG wire. I will then run 8 AWG to 5 Furutech premium duplex outlets. This design was based on advice From Vince Galbo based on previous successful implementations.
-Rob

BTW, I also obtained my XLF's in late 2020. I guess we can both thank the XVX.

Good to know...the ground loop is pretty much gone now. Not sure how/why...but whatever few db of loop hum is left is now gone. Meanwhile, the ground loop preceded the use of the Torus anyway...not exactly sure where it came from or how it's gone. But wont complain!

And yes, thanks to the XVX, we both can joy the XLF!

 

[DoctorWhy]

glad you torus is working.
Cheers

 

[LL21]

are you planning on removing the Torus completely when you have installed your new 25kVA?

 

[Aussienut]

Good to know...the ground loop is pretty much gone now. Not sure how/why...but whatever few db of loop hum is left is now gone. Meanwhile, the ground loop preceded the use of the Torus anyway...not exactly sure where it came from or how it's gone. But wont complain!

And yes, thanks to the XVX, we both can joy the XLF!

I’ve had the Torus for several years with now issues. Never had any grounding hum issues but did have a mechanical hum in a Krell FPB300cx amplifier transformer which was eliminated when the Torus was introduced.

Yes I also benefited in 2018 when the XLF was about to be retired and the XVX was due for release. The previous XLF owner sold his 3 year old XLF set to me so he could order the XVX. I couldn’t afford a new XLF but after getting all my money back on a pair of Alexandria S1’s I had for 6 years which were also purchased as secondhand, I was able to afford the difference.

Thanks WA for building high quality products, providing access to spares for retired models and the secondhand market value retention once the initial new price depreciation has occurred.

 

[Aussienut]

Waiting for the 3/8” thread adaptors for the XLFs to be dispatched.

 

[LL21]

Waiting for the 3/8” thread adaptors for the XLFs to be dispatched.

Great! Please post when you have the new diodes installed. Most interested. I got a nice deal upgrading from Stillpoints U5s to U7s (rumored to be designed in conjunction with Andy Payor of Rockport fame?)...where these U7s were designed with large speakers in mind like the big Avalons, Wilsons among others.

 

[Aussienut]

I will let you know. I have looked at Stillpoints several times other the years. I use Finite Elemente racks and footers for my components but have always struggled to accept the floating bearing type technology for speakers since they rely on a fixed platform to launch acoustic energy. From my engineering background, a fixed connection to the floor makes sense to me. So I was pleased when Wilson Audio launched a product that aligned with my perception. I’m sure they will be an improvement, it will be a case of how much.

 

[LL21]

I will let you know. I have looked at Stillpoints several times other the years. I use Finite Elemente racks and footers for my components but have always struggled to accept the floating bearing type technology for speakers since they rely on a fixed platform to launch acoustic energy. From my engineering background, a fixed connection to the floor makes sense to me. So I was pleased when Wilson Audio launched a product that aligned with my perception. I’m sure they will be an improvement, it will be a case of how much.

Hi Aussienut,

Any update on how the Wilson diodes worked out on your XLFs?

 

[LL21]

JUST AN UPDATE SINCE LAST CALIBRATION OF XLFs TWO YEARS AGO.

- During the course of the last 2 years, the amps have migrated from CJ GAT2/Gryphon Mephisto to Robert Koda K15EX/K160 Monos.
- After letting the K160s settle in for exactly a year (which also included working on isolation and grounding in stages)...we FINALLY got back to finetuning the XLFs according to the new setup

A few observations:

- The danger of having lots of variables is also the magic that enables the speaker to work so well in so many different environments
- Pedro of Absolute Sounds is a maven by many accounts here in the UK but also internationally where is not infrequently flown overseas to install high end systems from clients with a base in London
- Both Wilson Audio and Transparent Audio have spoken incredibly highly, placing him in that global pantheon of truly brilliant, talented and dedicated professionals with a serious technical background

- On this basis, the XLFs were adjusted first for mids and treble in response to the difference in the CJ GAT 2/Gryphon Mephisto but also in the bass where the XLF (cross-loaded firing) made a remarkable difference. Remarkable.
- Pedro also kindly ensured the Sub was properly calibrated and finetuned as well.
- He measured the room basically flat to 25hz and -5db at 20hz.

- It has been eye opening to experience the change post-removal of Gryphon back to the absolutely effortless power of the system in the mid bass
- The Robert Kodas have extended sub-bass well below and beyond the Mephisto, but the Mephisto appeared to push the 50hz range quite a lot relative to the Robert Kodas.
- Once again (finally after 2 years), we are starting to bring the volume back down to extremely low levels and finding that ALL the detail, bass, power and body is there.

 

[DoctorWhy]

are you planning on removing the Torus completely when you have installed your new 25kVA?

Yes. The Torus imploded months before the major electrical upgrade. The dedicated line and huge transformer significantly lowered measurable noise in electrical signal. The signal was measured with some gizmo Vince Galbo told me to buy. Although it requires more time and effort, it costs about the same to put in dedicated electric with or without a transformer compared to an adequate Torus unit. The Torus unit was absolutely incapable of powering my Nagra HD amps, which are now gone too.

 

[LL21]

Yes. The Torus imploded months before the major electrical upgrade. The dedicated line and huge transformer significantly lowered measurable noise in electrical signal. The signal was measured with some gizmo Vince Galbo told me to buy. Although it requires more time and effort, it costs about the same to put in dedicated electric with or without a transformer compared to an adequate Torus unit. The Torus unit was absolutely incapable of powering my Nagra HD amps, which are now gone too.

Good to hear the new work is done...enjoy. The same work as Capitol Records...wow!

Regarding your amps...what has replaced the Nagras...I see you have custom KT150 amps in your signature block?

Also, hopefully I have not forgotten...but curious to know more about your 4-speaker bass array by Wally. I am contemplating a massive upgrade to the Velodyne DD18+ an exploring options for 2024. Thanks for any insights there.

 

[XV-1]

Hi Lloyd

Are you still running subwoofers with the XLF's?

If so, can you tell us how you are running them?
That is running the XLF full range with the subs blended via the preamp 2nd outputs
Or
Using external crossover
Or?

 

[LL21]

Hi Lloyd

Are you still running subwoofers with the XLF's?

If so, can you tell us how you are running them?
That is running the XLF full range with the subs blended via the preamp 2nd outputs
Or
Using external crossover
Or?

Hi. Absolutely. The Robert Koda K15EX has 2 RCA outs and 2 XLR outs. We run the Velodyne DD18+ in parallel with the main XLFs running full-range. The Velodyne's own internal settings are quite good, and the Absolute Sounds guru was kind enough to calibrate the sub as part of installing the XLFs. He said it is smooth down to 25hz and then -5db at 20hz.

Are you thinking of subs?

 

[XV-1]

Hi. Absolutely. The Robert Koda K15EX has 2 RCA outs and 2 XLR outs. We run the Velodyne DD18+ in parallel with the main XLFs running full-range. The Velodyne's own internal settings are quite good, and the Absolute Sounds guru was kind enough to calibrate the sub as part of installing the XLFs. He said it is smooth down to 25hz and then -5db at 20hz.

Are you thinking of subs?

Hi Loyd, Yes. I have had a JL E110 sub for around 12 months now - an amazing sounding little sub. It adds a nice bit of bass weight, extension, bloom and still a tight bass sound that adds to what the Maxx3's do. I do the same - use the 2nd set of outputs on the Dag pre and run the Maxx3's full range.

I am upgrading to 2 x JL F112v2's tomorrow, so looking forward to a few months of playing and optimising setup - all good fun..
Upgrading speakers is out at this stage - everything is so bloody expensive these days. Nobody in Australia are upgrading their XLF's or Alexx's as the replacement cost is just crazy expensive. Brands like Wilson don't seem to care about this thou.
Upgrading the subs seems like the best bang for $$ upgrade.

What is your Velodyne crossover frequency you are using at the moment - do you change the setting at all?

cheers

Shane