Will RTR be around in 5 years?

[KeithR]

Interested in new formats and hearing several powerful demos, I just looked at the Tape Project catalog and don't see a single recent recording (within like 20 years). Some Groove Note recordings cost $600/each now according to a release at the last audio show.

Is there any sense of viability for this format going forward or is it just a (wealthy) audiophile obsession for people who owned machines back in the 60s/70s?

 

[Andre Marc]

Interested in new formats and hearing several powerful demos, I just looked at the Tape Project catalog and don't see a single recent recording (within like 20 years). Some Groove Note recordings cost $600/each now according to a release at the last audio show.

Is there any sense of viability for this format going forward or is it just a (wealthy) audiophile obsession for people who owned machines back in the 60s/70s?

No, it will be replaced with a cascade of DSD downloads....

 

[Bruce B]

RTR will be around for another 20yr. Same with vinyl.

 

[MylesBAstor]

Interested in new formats and hearing several powerful demos, I just looked at the Tape Project catalog and don't see a single recent recording (within like 20 years). Some Groove Note recordings cost $600/each now according to a release at the last audio show.

Is there any sense of viability for this format going forward or is it just a (wealthy) audiophile obsession for people who owned machines back in the 60s/70s?

Instead of taking a cynical, half-empty, back handed slap at R2R enthusiasts, perhaps the more appropriate question is why people are into tape nowadays? I think you'd find the among the answers most often given is once you've heard tape, there's no going back. Second, I think you'd find that many people into R2R nowadays aren't using those stock, '70s machines. Instead they're listening through modern, updated electronics and machines equipped with SOTA heads. Next, why do you think most, not all as you insinuate, of TTP releases are older recordings? Perhaps that TTP stated they're not going to release digital recordings on tape.? Perhaps there haven't been too many good analog recordings made today that TTP can also afford to license? Then, you're taking a few tapes and making it seem like all the releases are $600. Actually the Yarlung recordings (one reel) are $150 as are Jonathan Horwich's releases. And TTP are cheaper if you're a subscriber also. Lastly, why do you think the tapes are so costly. Have you checked into what tape costs per reel nowadays. Then add in licensing fees. Then add in paying people to dupe these tape. Then add in the cost of the equipment and upkeep. I think you'd find that none of these tape software manufacturing are living high on the hog with the prices they're charging.

I strongly urge you visit one of the tape people here at WBF and then see if it's about elitism or having the best source material.

 

[KeithR]

Instead of taking a cynical, half-empty, back handed slap at R2R enthusiasts, perhaps the more appropriate question is why people are into tape nowadays? I think you'd find the among the answers most often given is once you've heard tape, there's no going back. Second, I think you'd find that many people into R2R nowadays aren't using those stock, '70s machines. Instead they're listening through modern, updated electronics and machines equipped with SOTA heads. Next, why do you think most, not all as you insinuate, of TTP releases are older recordings? Perhaps that TTP stated they're not going to release digital recordings on tape.? Perhaps there haven't been too many good analog recordings made today that TTP can also afford to license? Then, you're taking a few tapes and making it seem like all the releases are $600. Actually the Yarlung recordings (one reel) are $150 as are Jonathan Horwich's releases. And TTP are cheaper if you're a subscriber also. Lastly, why do you think the tapes are so costly. Have you checked into what tape costs per reel nowadays. Then add in licensing fees. Then add in paying people to dupe these tape. Then add in the cost of the equipment and upkeep. I think you'd find that none of these tape software manufacturing are living high on the hog with the prices they're charging.

I strongly urge you visit one of the tape people here at WBF and then see if it's about elitism or having the best source material.

If you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen I'm not taking a cynical view at all- I love (and stated) what I heard in recent demos (at a PF reviewer's house no less, Myles), but there is zero catalog for anything remotely new that I am discovering after looking at 10 sites with the exception of small scale classical niche recordings.

How does this format invite younger audiophiles like myself in like vinyl has? Are there new indie labels that will use RTR? What bands are interested in releasing stuff on tape? (I honestly know very little about the tape business and what is being made or the future of the format--hence my direct question about viability)

And even $150 bucks is 5 good vinyl recordings

 

[Mike Lavigne]

If you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen I'm not taking a cynical view at all- I love (and stated) what I heard in recent demos (at a PF reviewer's house no less, Myles), but there is zero catalog for anything remotely new that I am discovering after looking at 10 sites with the exception of small scale classical niche recordings.

How does this format invite younger audiophiles like myself in like vinyl has? Are there new indie labels that will use RTR? What bands are interested in releasing stuff on tape? (I honestly know very little about the tape business and what is being made or the future of the format--hence my direct question about viability)

And even $150 bucks is 5 good vinyl recordings

first; Tape is not for the newbie audiophile. it's for someone who wants the very highest form of playback, or maybe someone who wants to have analog but not the logisitcal challenge of vinyl, such as Steve Williams. not that the newbie should not do tape, but it's crossing the 'T' of being an audiophile....it's never going to be the daily or hourly listening choice.

as far as the selection of recording choices, there are more than you see listed there. once one is in the culture of tape all sorts of 'main stream' recordings become accessable that are under the radar. so in terms of recordings that appeal to you were you to visit my room we could play plenty for hours and hours that would likely enthrall you.

sure, tape is not for everyone. but if we just want to talk about money......one can make a good case for tape being the best performance for the least money of any format...until you start wanting a deep catalog. you can get a nice RTR deck for less than $5k and a few tapes that will surpass any tt under $20k, and digital while wonderful is not really in that game. if you want vinyl that sounds like 'good' tape that is possible, but very, very expensive.

so tape has it's logical reasons for existing for the audiophile.

6-7 years ago i dived into tape (prior to the first Tape Project title being released) because i was curious to see whether it could better my Rockport turntable. there was no place to ask questions, no one knew anything, i had to dig and dig to get even the most basic of answers. i forged ahead anyway......converting many of my friends to the wonder of tape.

every year since things have gotten better and better for us tape-heads. i marvel at all the choices that we now have compared to such a short time ago.

even for those who don't dive in, tape has been a wonderful thing as it pushes the other formats to get that much better. i can tell you that having tape in my room has resulted in me having a better turntable since it gave me something to shoot at.

better sound......happier audiophiles.

 

[Groucho]

I have always loved the look of a R-to-R, so I hope they continue to be used. But... quoting from an AES paper The Dawn of Commercial Digital Recording I find it interesting that not everyone has always thought of tape as being "the highest form of playback".

Nippon Columbia, known outside of Japan primarily by its Denon brand, was both a major music-recording company and an equipment manufacturer. Its record company by the late 1960s was investigating how to improve LP sound quality, and criticism centered on distortions caused by analog tape recorders. Denon was a pioneer in the revival of direct-to-disc recording, and Denon engineers visited and collaborated with NHK's PCM pioneers. Denon's stated purpose: "To produce recordings that were not compromised by the weaknesses of magnetic tape recorder."

Early digital 'insurance backups' were released rather than some direct-to-disc recordings in the 1970s, and are still revered by classical music enthusiasts as being some of the best ever recordings.

www.aes.org/aeshc/pdf/fine_dawn-of-digital.pdf?

Has anything much changed in R-to-R design recently? If you look at the specs for a modern machine you can see that it's still far from a transparent medium. SNR say 70dB, distortion 0.3%, frequency response +/-2dB.
http://www.otari.com/product/recorder/mx5050/spec.html

Have a look at this: http://www.endino.com/graphs/

 

[Peter Breuninger]

Tape is for the top of our hobby/endeavor. Others need not apply. Us 1% (in audio).

 

[Groucho]

Us 1% (in audio).

Is that the THD?

 

[FrantzM]

. I don't think there is much debate that Tape is up there when it comes to quality, whether it is the best is an opinion, i-e subject to debate. It seems the notion of music is lost in the discussion, Of the music on the Tape Project, care to tell me something 5 years Old? Seems the bulk of tape is about things that have been recorded a long while ago or in the best cases of not that great ensembles, artists, orchestras or Titles. Worse the quantity is very small. Question: Are there 100 titles in the Tape Project? If yes how many of these are musically interesting? Meanwhile the world is not standing still and music is being produced by the boatload thanks to cheap digital recording gears ... The world over .. It is unlikely that any of these will land on tape
The issue is software/Music not the fact that it sounds good, that is not where the debate is. The debate is how much software is available, thus will this lack of availability spell doom for Tapes.

Now , I do believe Tape will be there for the next 30 to 40 years about the length of time our generation ( avg 50 ) will be around, we managed to keep Vinyl alive it will be the same with tapes with prices getting more and more obscene .. After we all pass away (barring some unforeseen advance in Life Extension, it will be all digital or direct cortical implants. I shudder at that thought

P.S. Is it me of do I see snobbery getting in the discussion ....??

 

[cjfrbw]

It will still be around, but it might not be the raging fashion any more.

Yes, I believe it is the top analog playback experience when everything is right, no comparison, it is the ultimate. Really good vinyl playback can approach it in some instances. Not all tapes I have heard are that great, even some expensive ones. Just as some digital is better than some vinyl, some vinyl can be better than some tapes.

It's hard for me to imagine going into the investments and variables to have a handful of great sounding demo tapes that I would probably only play in the rare instances when anyone but me is listening. I had tape for decades, have no desire to go back. The running average of vinyl playback that I am able to get is already whelming enough, if not overwhelming.

 

[microstrip]

. I don't think there is much debate that Tape is up there when it comes to quality, whether it is the best is an opinion, i-e subject to debate. It seems the notion of music is lost in the discussion, Of the music on the Tape Project, care to tell me something 5 years Old? Seems the bulk of tape is about things that have been recorded a long while ago or in the best cases of not that great ensembles, artists, orchestras or Titles. Worse the quantity is very small. Question: Are there 100 titles in the Tape Project? If yes how many of these are musically interesting? Meanwhile the world is not standing still and music is being produced by the boatload thanks to cheap digital recording gears ... The world over .. It is unlikely that any of these will land on tape
The issue is software/Music not the fact that it sounds good, that is not where the debate is. The debate is how much software is available, thus will this lack of availability spell doom for Tapes.

Now , I do believe Tape will be there for the next 30 to 40 years about the length of time our generation ( avg 50 ) will be around, we managed to keep Vinyl alive it will be the same with tapes with prices getting more and more obscene .. After we all pass away (barring some unforeseen advance in Life Extension, it will be all digital or direct cortical implants. I shudder at that thought

P.S. Is it me of do I see snobbery getting in the discussion ....??

Frantz,

I am sure that you know you could get the details about the existing 23 tapes titles in the TapeProject and know we will be waiting for sometime for the remaining 7 in a few seconds ...

IMHO you misunderstand the role of RTR. For me the number of available performances is not an issue, as long as there are a few I enjoy. AFAIK people enter the RTR in order to have a few performances in what they consider the best music sound reproduction format. Availability of modern titles is not really an issue for most of us. I should state that I am a subscriber of the TP tapes. Sometime ago I asked a question - what would sound better, my tapes played in my own A80 reel to reel machine or DSD5.6 copy made by BruceB in his machine equipped with the Doshi preamplifier? Would love to know the answer, but all I can hope to get as an answer in WBF is someone trying to prove to me scientifically that a 16/44.1 transfer of the master is better than my copy...

BTW1, I do not see snobbery in the thread, mainly enthusiasm of RTR aficionados.

BTW2, IMHO audiophiles do not need to disguise as music lovers - after all it is only an hobby. We have time for both.

 

[rockitman]

I was reluctant to get into tape for the very reason you are...source material. I took the plunge and found source that surpassed my expectations once you get to know some tapers. I bought a 6 tape subscription from Tape Project. It took a year to get the final tape, so patience is a virtue with that source.

I agree with Mike L. RTR is a supplement to well sorted vinyl, not a replacement, unless you are a studio with unlimited access to source of all varieties.

 

[MylesBAstor]

I have always loved the look of a R-to-R, so I hope they continue to be used. But... quoting from an AES paper The Dawn of Commercial Digital Recording I find it interesting that not everyone has always thought of tape as being "the highest form of playback".

Early digital 'insurance backups' were released rather than some direct-to-disc recordings in the 1970s, and are still revered by classical music enthusiasts as being some of the best ever recordings.

www.aes.org/aeshc/pdf/fine_dawn-of-digital.pdf?

Has anything much changed in R-to-R design recently? If you look at the specs for a modern machine you can see that it's still far from a transparent medium. SNR say 70dB, distortion 0.3%, frequency response +/-2dB.
http://www.otari.com/product/recorder/mx5050/spec.html

Have a look at this: http://www.endino.com/graphs/

Do a search. This subject has been flogged to death already.

 

[flez007]

I still need to be exposed to DSD or HD that equals the purity and ambience of a master tape, in the meantime, my bet is that we will find more options both in software and hardware in the RtR camp.

 

[NorthStar]

Anything that has soul will be forever around, including Reel-to-Reel tape machine decks.

And speaking of (R2R & Soul) ::

 

[Asamel]

As a relative newbie (well I had a few cheap decks in high school) all I can say is that my reel tapes make my system sound wonderful. The music and the machines bring me joy.

Beat that.

Bruce in PA

 

[KeithR]

I was reluctant to get into tape for the very reason you are...source material. I took the plunge and found source that surpassed my expectations once you get to know some tapers. I bought a 6 tape subscription from Tape Project. It took a year to get the final tape, so patience is a virtue with that source.

I agree with Mike L. RTR is a supplement to well sorted vinyl, not a replacement, unless you are a studio with unlimited access to source of all varieties.

Thanks Christian- you and Mike's assessment is quite helpful. I was more looking at tape as a substitute for vinyl and questioning with such a limited catalog, if the format could really catch fire. It appears to be more of a complementary asset.

 

[MylesBAstor]

Thanks Christian- you and Mike's assessment is quite helpful. I was more looking at tape as a substitute for vinyl and questioning with such a limited catalog, if the format could really catch fire. It appears to be more of a complementary asset.

The software problem is going to be a hard one to overcome. Simply, there's no was to speed up the production of real time, duped tapes (that's why records-->casettes-->CDs-->MP3 came around). There's a limit to the number of copies (IIRC it's six) someone like TTP can make at any one time. Others like Opus 3, Yarlung, Jonathan Horowitz, etc. only make one tape at a time. So take six dupes at a time, setup and checking and maintenance included, 200 subscribers and one can roughly calculate the time to make a run of tapes. Then people are always asking for older tapes so every so often TTP has to go back and make another run between titles (because of costs, they rarely have extra copies of titles laying around).

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

I think it'll be around as long as enough people with enough money like the way it sounds. Yes, it is terribly expensive to get into and there is a very limited catalog of software available, which, along with the hardware and maintenance, will only get more expensive over time. But expense is only a detriment until it begins to create a very high level of rarity and exclusivity and generate a very high level of desireability as a result. Then it becomes a benefit to those who can afford it. 20 years? Maybe. But then the generation who grew up on analog and cares about rotating reels begins to die off. It will become a really small club after that.

Tim