Why Tube Amps Sound Different (and better) Than SS Amps

[Phelonious Ponk]

That statement is absolutely untrue and I can't believe you said that. For the most part with speakers, form follows function and so it is with Wilson. The size, shape, and material used in their construction has everything to do with their performance.

Seriously? You don't think an inexpensive cabinet could be built with the rigidity and acoustical properties but without the metro modern furniture/Ferrari look and feel? You think any other single component in one of their speakers costs as much as that cabinetry? What component would that be? One of the drivers? I'm not saying that cabinet design doesn't impact sound. Of course it does. And I'm not saying that Wilsons aren't very fine speakers, they are. What I am saying is the high end has a ton of money tied up in the way it looks, the impression it makes before it is ever powered up. Any denying that is pretty deep denial indeed.

Tim

 

[rbbert]

I personally think it would be a mistake to ban Ethan. Even disregarding the entertainment value of many of his posts, he does know something about room acoustics. It shouldn't be hard to ignore his superfluous posts and pay attention only to the ones of interest; after all, isn't that what most of us already do with posts by any other member?

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Hi all,

Maybe I'm taking Mr. Winer's words out of context but I don't think so. I believe he is calling those who "trust their ears" versus those that "trust their measurements" the "someone" he describes above. A classic example of a passive / aggressive personality.

Notwithstanding the personal insult on the intelligence and integrity of all the someones who post on this site, the above post is frankly petty, childish, immature, and disgusting and a big FU to many of us who aspire to a higher level of musical reproduction (and emotional connection to the music) in our homes using those silly things on the sides of our head.

If there was ever a reason for a permanent ban this, IMHO, clearly meets that standard.

A personal request to Mr. Winer. Please stop posting on the WBF.

Your move moderators.

GG

Yes, moderators, ban Ethan because they guy who has been verbally abusing him, personally attacking him and calling him "Mr. Winer" for the last few pages doesn't like his analogy. Ban someone, if you're awake. Or just close this damn thread.

Tim

 

[thedudeabides]

Thank you PP.

That was an enlightened, rational response.

Please re-read the thread and all the others that discuss the objective / subjective nature of this hobby and have issues with Mr. Winer's "my way or the highway" approach, that being "I am right and you are wrong" and those that disagree are somehow delusional or have been abducted by aliens who have probed their anal areas.

I am merely one of many.

But if you want to attack me, have at it.

Having said that, I think your last sentence is a good idea.

 

[MylesBAstor]

Yes, moderators, ban Ethan because they guy who has been verbally abusing him, personally attacking him and calling him "Mr. Winer" for the last few pages doesn't like his analogy. Ban someone, if you're awake. Or just close this damn thread.

Tim

No it's not Winer but Scienceman in disguise. Perhaps this will shed more light on the science part.

http://www.stereophile.com/content/proof-performance-synergistic-art-1?page=0

 

[mep]

Seriously? You don't think an inexpensive cabinet could be built with the rigidity and acoustical properties but without the metro modern furniture/Ferrari look and feel? You think any other single component in one of their speakers costs as much as that cabinetry? What component would that be? One of the drivers? I'm not saying that cabinet design doesn't impact sound. Of course it does. And I'm not saying that Wilsons aren't very fine speakers, they are. What I am saying is the high end has a ton of money tied up in the way it looks, the impression it makes before it is ever powered up. Any denying that is pretty deep denial indeed.

Tim

No, I don't. If you look back at the history of Wilson Audio, you can see the same basic concepts of design have been there since the beginning and I do think it's a form follows function design. The materials that Wilson uses to make his enclosures and which shapes the way they sound are not going to be duplicated on the cheap. The fact that Wilson uses automotive paint finishes to make their cabinets look beautiful is icing on the cake and of course they would sound the same if they were spray painted with Krylon paint. However, I don't think that would help sales.

 

[MylesBAstor]

Seriously? You don't think an inexpensive cabinet could be built with the rigidity and acoustical properties but without the metro modern furniture/Ferrari look and feel? You think any other single component in one of their speakers costs as much as that cabinetry? What component would that be? One of the drivers? I'm not saying that cabinet design doesn't impact sound. Of course it does. And I'm not saying that Wilsons aren't very fine speakers, they are. What I am saying is the high end has a ton of money tied up in the way it looks, the impression it makes before it is ever powered up. Any denying that is pretty deep denial indeed.

Tim

You obviously haven't seen (nor heard) speakers from Magico, Wilson, Evolution Acoustics, Von Schweikert, Focal or you couldn't say this. You do know it's not just rigidity that's important right? Ever seen a CAD layout of speaker enclosure? Software starts at 25K. That's not counting mods to the program and additional modules. Start looking at some waterfall charts of say a Magico and please tell me how you are going to equal that in a cheap enclosure. If you can, might I suggest you take up speaker building?

 

[Atmasphere]

Just for the record, I have no trouble with skepticism. I think its healthy. One should question why a tube amp sounds better or why a power cord can make a difference. Or why power cords don't make a difference and why transistors sound better. In doing so, one is then on a journey of discovery.

There is a difference from skepticism and what I have come to call a 'skoftic'; in that anything outside the world view of a scoftic is rejected out of hand.

However I see that Ethan has softened his position. If you look at his video at the link he provided, when dealing with the power cord issue he says "But its a power cord! Its a power cord! I repeat, its a power cord!" but if you look at his last post you see something quite different:

At what point do you conclude their perception is flawed, and assume there must be another explanation even though they're...."certain they heard a difference between two measurably competent AC power wires."

"Measurably competent"?? Interesting choice of words. That seems a pretty big movement from his initial position to me and I give him credit for that.

 

[Bruce B]

No it's not Winer but Scienceman in disguise. Perhaps this will shed more light on the science part.

http://www.stereophile.com/content/proof-performance-synergistic-art-1?page=0

Wow.... just wow.... light after dinner reading!

 

[garylkoh]

Wow.... just wow.... light after dinner reading!

I want the last 30 minutes of my life back!

 

[thedudeabides]

No it's not Winer but Scienceman in disguise. Perhaps this will shed more light on the science part.

http://www.stereophile.com/content/proof-performance-synergistic-art-1?page=0

As they said in the movie 2001, "MY god, it's full of stars".

Thank you Myles. Kinda fills in the gaps.

GG

 

[rockitman]

Wow.... just wow.... light after dinner reading!

Talk about arrogance...from the stereophile forum thread.

I'm certain I understand the science of audio better than most audiophiles, and even most professional recording engineers. My enormous body of work speaks for itself. Not having a formal degree didn't keep me from being published in S&V magazine linked above, or Microsoft Systems Journal, or IBM's Exchange magazine, or just about every pro audio publication at one time or another. Bill Gates never finished college, nor did dozens of other high-profile people in the field of science. Is this really your best argument, that I don't have a college degree?

 

[Bruce B]

I'm certain I understand the science of audio better than most audiophiles, and even most professional recording engineers. My enormous body of work speaks for itself.

I don't see a single recording or mixing credit on www.allmusic.com for Ethan...

 

[rockitman]

I don't see a single recording or mixing credit on www.allmusic.com for Ethan...

No matter...he still understands audio better than most professional sound/recording engineers. Wow !!!

 

[microstrip]

Seriously? You don't think an inexpensive cabinet could be built with the rigidity and acoustical properties but without the metro modern furniture/Ferrari look and feel? You think any other single component in one of their speakers costs as much as that cabinetry? What component would that be? One of the drivers? I'm not saying that cabinet design doesn't impact sound. Of course it does. And I'm not saying that Wilsons aren't very fine speakers, they are. What I am saying is the high end has a ton of money tied up in the way it looks, the impression it makes before it is ever powered up. Any denying that is pretty deep denial indeed.

Tim

Very fine speakers cost a lot of money. If you would prefer to pay a little less and have a cheap finish, it is your preference. My first Wilson speakers, that were manufactured almost 20 years ago still look great and are part of the decoration of a good friend room.

Fortunately most high-end designers spend some money on design. I ask for good sound, but prefer if it comes with an aspect that pleases my (and my family and friends) aesthetic feelings. Surely we have some high-end products that are real design objects and deserve to be part of a museum collection - but these are the exceptions, not the general rule.

 

[MylesBAstor]

Very fine speakers cost a lot of money. If you would prefer to pay a little less and have a cheap finish, it is your preference. My first Wilson speakers, that were manufactured almost 20 years ago still look great and are part of the decoration of a good friend room.

Fortunately most high-end designers spend some money on design. I ask for good sound, but prefer if it comes with an aspect that pleases my (and my family and friends) aesthetic feelings. Surely we have some high-end products that are real design objects and deserve to be part of a museum collection - but these are the exceptions, not the general rule.

Finish is just one component. Show me how you can machine an enclosure out of Aluminum or alloys thereof cheaply! And then anodize it. Or the elaborate woodwork and bracing etc. used say by SF or Evolution Acoustics. Yeah you can always make an enclosure of our cheap MDF. And look at it's resonance and decay characteristics. Now that's what I call voicing a speaker.

 

[morricab]

Seriously? You don't think an inexpensive cabinet could be built with the rigidity and acoustical properties but without the metro modern furniture/Ferrari look and feel? You think any other single component in one of their speakers costs as much as that cabinetry? What component would that be? One of the drivers? I'm not saying that cabinet design doesn't impact sound. Of course it does. And I'm not saying that Wilsons aren't very fine speakers, they are. What I am saying is the high end has a ton of money tied up in the way it looks, the impression it makes before it is ever powered up. Any denying that is pretty deep denial indeed.

Tim

No matter how you decide to build a properly rigid and damped cabinet it will not be inexpensive. It is a rather difficult task and Wilson has chosen materials that work quite well and would not be easy to duplicate in another way (Magico uses a VERY elaborate aluminum superstructure to achieve a similar rigidity). Of course one can always do away with the cabinet altogether but you loose some of the benefits of a cabinet...like bass...unless you equalize like hell or "cheat" (like Bob Carver did with his Amazing hybrid speakers. There he purposely used way UNDERdamped drivers to counteract the phase cancellation effect you get with open baffle speakers). You cannot do with wood what Wilson or Magico are doing with Plazrock (epoxy/stone composites) or metal. Rockport does interesting monoqoque designs with carbon fiber, which are very rigid (a different but potetnially equally valid approach). All wood cabinets will to a lesser or greater extent "sing along" with the energy put into them by the drivers...how much and at what amplitude varies by design but it is always there. Materials other than MDF get expensive fast and that is why a big cabinet with those materials costs big money but the result is superior to wood based cabinets.

The cabinets cost that much because they can ruin an otherwise good design and it is often the cabinet that is responsible for the characteristic colorations one hears from a speaker...if you MUST have a box then it must be silent.

 

[morricab]

Wow.... just wow.... light after dinner reading!

shocking, really!

 

[Ethan Winer]

did you give free copies of your book to all your Pro buddies and tell them to stuff the amazon review box?

Yes, I paid them all $100 each. I also paid all of the magazine reviewers listed on my Audio Expert page $100 each for their enthusiastic praise.

What's so childish, and even pathetic, about your accusation is that you would benefit enormously from reading and understanding my book.

--Ethan

 

[Ethan Winer]

BTW, regarding that old Stereophile thread, if you read it through you'll find that Ted Denny eventually admits I was right, that the BS "data" he posted for his magic ART bowls was in fact BS.