SS Amp Performance Characteristics

[Kingrex]

I was curious about getiing a sub $10,000 SS amp. Thing is, I really have no idea how to assess how they voice. I don't know what is good or bad. In my mind, they all seem to sound about the same. I generally hear about the same thing from the systems I hear them in. I personally attribute the variation in sound from system to system to speakers and their placement.
I am assuming there must be some pretty large variation in tone and performance. There sure is a massive spread in pricing.

So whats going on with SS amps. What do you look for that makes one stand out as great where another is only OK. Or maybe bad.

To make things more confusing, One can read a glowing customer review on one forum. Well written and decent comparisons. But another forum has members saying the product is good. Kind of sweet and slightly warm. Well, is it great, or is it about the same as every other SS amp out there.

How do people assess a SS amp and conclude one is great or just ok.

Rex

 

[Kingrex]

Bump

 

[chuck]

How do people assess a SS amp and conclude one is great or just ok.

The way I assessed SS amps was I listened to a bunch of them at all different price points. If none stood out from the pack, I would have bought a cheaper one but one did stand out and I bought that one.

 

[Paul1960]

As I'm sure you know, the audiophile world crudely divides into two camps. You have the objectivists who largely believe that only mechanical transducers have a sound and that all normally functioning electronics with similar measurements sound the same. They justify these beliefs by referring to "scientific" double blind studies and basic physics and attribute any differences they "think" they hear to psycho-acoustic delusions. On the other hand, subjectivists largely believe that everything matters and can impact the sound even when that flies in the face of what they were taught in high school physics or Electrical Engineering 101. It sounds like you lean towards the objectivist camp. So congratulations, you have just saved yourself a ton of money and and don't have to ride the endless Audiophile merry go round of upgrading your electronics, cables, and power supplies.

Personally, I started this journey in the objectivist camp and it was only by tube rolling in my preamp and building all of the DIY FirstWatt amps and listening carefully that I become aware of how much difference the electronics can make. The final thing that swung me over to subjectivism was when a friend brought over a box of RCA cables that he proceeded to switch out in my system and I clearly heard important differences. At the end of the day I choose to believe my ears instead of assertions that it was all snake oil.

With that preamble, I have owned more than a dozen amps ranging from a $200 Class D amp all the way up to the Halcro Monoblocks that were named the Stereophile product of the year in 2002. And I have had the privilege of listening to very high end systems when careful comparisons of amps were being performed. I believe strongly that there are clear differences in how amplifiers sound. I also believe that one has to know how to listen in order to hear and understand those differences. And in general, I also think those differences can be fairly subtle, albeit important.

I am a big believer in performing careful A/B comparisons in my system in order to reach the conclusion about which equipment sounds best in my system. Most posters on the forums are simply touting what they own. Most reviewers refuse to provide an opinion about which pieces of gear are better and worse and they don't submit reviews of gear they dislike. And even when two pieces of gear do sound very different what kind of sound you prefer will color your opinion about what gear is best.

So no matter how carefully you research a piece of equipment, at the end of the day you really have to listen to it in your own system, with the type of music you like, to decide if it is right for you. Sorry, but I don't think there are any shortcuts other than being happy with what you already own.

 

[Kingrex]

Listening in my own system isn't an option at my price point.
I owned a Dartzeel NHB108 model 1. Wil loaned me his Atmasphere Class D. Head to head, there was no way to tell them apart. .
Thomas came over with a Orchard Audio, then took my Dartzeel to his place. The Dartzeel was better, but I don't really remember how they differed. Very small difference.
I had Thrax Mono at my place. But I had to use the Thrax preamp also. I remember a lot of bass. Too much?????? I was not use to that. Even compared the my CJ Premier 140.

Honestly, I'm wanting a living room system thats good enough I can put it in my main system and not be totally disappointed. I'm looking at a Soulnote A-2. It's supposed to be good. One person praising the heck out of it. Others saying is good with a slight bit of warmth. But they prefer Accuphase. Im comparing that to a NAD M33. All in one. Built in streaming/DAC as well as room correction. This is where I ask, can you really tell them apart. And what about room correction.

I use to be a part of Audiophile Junkies chat group. I left due to the never ending rant on BACCH BACCH BACCH. Jason was adamant, any system, digital or vinyl was going to be better with digital room correction. Even a basic $50k system would outperform a $250,000 system with properly implemented DSP controls. I couldn't say he was wrong. A guy I knew used BACCH. It definitely had a sonic signature. But again, hard to put your finger on what it was. Nothing was wrong. It was technically very correct. But you knew you were listening to SS DSP controlled music.

And there is that saying. One persons flavor is not another persons flavor. I don't get how so many Pass Lab and Mcintosh units are sold, yet so many say they are mediocre. The response to hatters is you have to like the way they present.

I get tubes. They can be so vocal. There is a very wide and apparent sonic difference between my KT88 PP amp and my SET845. There was a big difference between my CJ Premier 140 and VAC PHI160.

The SS stuff I have touched has not had the same obvious differences. They are darn close. But maybe I'm missing something subtle thats something big.

 

[Paul1960]

Listening in my own system isn't an option at my price point.
I owned a Dartzeel NHB108 model 1. Wil loaned me his Atmasphere Class D. Head to head, there was no way to tell them apart. .
Thomas came over with a Orchard Audio, then took my Dartzeel to his place. The Dartzeel was better, but I don't really remember how they differed. Very small difference.
I had Thrax Mono at my place. But I had to use the Thrax preamp also. I remember a lot of bass. Too much?????? I was not use to that. Even compared the my CJ Premier 140.

Honestly, I'm wanting a living room system thats good enough I can put it in my main system and not be totally disappointed. I'm looking at a Soulnote A-2. It's supposed to be good. One person praising the heck out of it. Others saying is good with a slight bit of warmth. But they prefer Accuphase. Im comparing that to a NAD M33. All in one. Built in streaming/DAC as well as room correction. This is where I ask, can you really tell them apart. And what about room correction.

I use to be a part of Audiophile Junkies chat group. I left due to the never ending rant on BACCH BACCH BACCH. Jason was adamant, any system, digital or vinyl was going to be better with digital room correction. Even a basic $50k system would outperform a $250,000 system with properly implemented DSP controls. I couldn't say he was wrong. A guy I knew used BACCH. It definitely had a sonic signature. But again, hard to put your finger on what it was. Nothing was wrong. It was technically very correct. But you knew you were listening to SS DSP controlled music.

And there is that saying. One persons flavor is not another persons flavor. I don't get how so many Pass Lab and Mcintosh units are sold, yet so many say they are mediocre. The response to hatters is you have to like the way they present.

I get tubes. They can be so vocal. There is a very wide and apparent sonic difference between my KT88 PP amp and my SET845. There was a big difference between my CJ Premier 140 and VAC PHI160.

The SS stuff I have touched has not had the same obvious differences. They are darn close. But maybe I'm missing something subtle thats something big.

All of the amps you mentioned are perfectly competent. If this is going into a second system I would probably just get the Orchard Audio Starkrimson Ultra. I had a loaner for a week and it is a very competent amp especially for the price. And if you need the extra features of the NAD M33 get that instead. I haven't heard it but the reviews are terrific.

As I said, differences between amps are real but subtle and often only important for very critical listening. If you are a music lover not a gear head or someone that gets involved in the minutiae of listening it is entirely possible that you might not even notice if somebody switched your amps out without telling you.

Bacch is an entirely different conversation. I had the top end Bacch SP in my system for almost a month. It is a remarkable product that makes 85% of the music I played with it sound much more interesting and better. But 15% of the music was worse and I tired of trying to guess what it would do well with. But it isn't in the same category as room correction. That is an entirely different thing.

If you are using DSP to perform room correction and you don't overdo it and you never have to do an analog to digital to analog conversion I would say the Audiophile Junky was right, it pretty much always makes a system better. So I use the DSP features in Roon to do correction in the digital domain before any analog conversion and there is no downside that I can hear or am aware of and the positive audible differences are immediately apparent. I wouldn't use something like a MiniDSP that takes an analog signal and converts it. I don't know the specifics of how the NAD M33 implements Dirac but the fact that it is built in is a strong argument for buying it in a mid-tier system.

 

[Kingrex]

All of the amps you mentioned are perfectly competent. If this is going into a second system I would probably just get the Orchard Audio Starkrimson Ultra. I had a loaner for a week and it is a very competent amp especially for the price. And if you need the extra features of the NAD M33 get that instead. I haven't heard it but the reviews are terrific.

I heard the Odyssey Audio are a lot better than Orchard Audio.

Reading about the M33 V2. I don't know I like all analog being converted to digital. And MQA is involved. In a different way than in the past. But any association with MQA as a company puts a negative vibe through me. Snake Oil.

And I do want to place the SS amp into my main system from time to time and have it compete with my KT88 amp. A very tall order. So far nothing I have heard comes close.

Yes, I do want the amp for a second system. But quality enough I can enjoy it in my main system.

 

[treitz3]

I heard the Odyssey Audio are a lot better than Orchard Audio.

Klauss makes some great SS amps but I will caution you. If you live in a lightning prone area and have to unplug the system frequently, then that's why I got rid of mine. I had his beefiest amp BITD with the top board, max cap., upgraded this and that and while it sounded great warmed up? The first three days leaves sound all over the place IME. The second day is actually worse than the first. Sometime (no apparent rhyme or reason) on day three, everything would just snap into place.

My issue was that storms are so frequent in my area, and I didn't want to thwart the performance of it with a surge protector, I would typically have to unplug it twice a week. Sometimes more. So, the amount of time I actually spent with the unit sounding its best was usually a lot less than the time it was still in flux. That wasn't my idea of a good SS amp.

FWIW, and your tastes may vary on this, but I have found that SS amps that utilize choke regulation and are dual mono are my favorites. My current amp is a Musical Fidelity KW-750, beefed up with the Snake River Audio Takshaka PC > SDFB MAX > Takshaka Pig Tail > QSA Red and Black fuse within the separate PS section of the amp > RAL umbilicals > AMP > Takshaka IC's out. I have nothing but praise for this amplifier, after what I have done to it. My buddy asked me if I would ever step up to the KW1000.....I just don't see the need.

Between the Odyssey and the MF? I like the sound of the MF much better. Even when the MF was just stock. FWIW.

Tom

 

[italia]

The first three days leaves sound all over the place IME. The second day is actually worse than the first. Sometime (no apparent rhyme or reason) on day three, everything would just snap into place.

My issue was that storms are so frequent in my area, and I didn't want to thwart the performance of it with a surge protector, I would typically have to unplug it twice a week. Sometimes more. So, the amount of time I actually spent with the unit sounding its best was usually a lot less than the time it was still in flux. That wasn't my idea of a good SS amp.

3 days - same as my system - and day 2 horrible - same!

I'm on a second day of thunderstorms now so it's unplugged. Supposed to have thunderstorms 6 of the next 14 days.

This is why I tend to listen mostly in the fall and winter, and do other hobbies in the spring and summer. So, in the the spring and summer I listen to my desktop system mostly LOL

 

[Kingrex]

Wow. Never heard a amp that takes days to warm up.

FWIW, and your tastes may vary on this, but I have found that SS amps that utilize choke regulation and are dual mono are my favorites.

Tom

What do you think choke regulated does? I get duel mono for many reasons

 

[treitz3]

I personally don't get into the topologies/engineering and what things do within gear, unless it's digital (and noise) related. I just go by sound and what the end result as to what hits these ears is.

You will hear it with the Odyssey amps (3 days to get to optimum sound). A friend of mine and I were discussing this years ago and we came to an unconfirmed conclusion/theory. The amps have multiple MOSFETs that are connected to large heat sinks. These heat sinks takes a long time to get up to a certain temperature and in the case of the Odyssey's, this generally took around 3 days. Once the MOSFET's and the heat sinks were at or very near the same temperature, this allowed the multiple MOSFET's attached to these large heat sinks to actually run at it's optimum operating range. Until they reached that point, the sound was "off". As mentioned, it was worse on day two. This was the same on a friend of mine's rig, who also ran with Odyssey amps.

Don't get me wrong, it gets "warmed up" rather quickly. But for it to reach it's optimum operating temp/sound, it took 3 days and this was very consistent while we had them in our respective rigs. Sometimes a little quicker in the winter and longer in the summer. This was seemingly dependent on ambient temperature in the room (but only by a couple of hours or so).

Tom

 

[alexatpos]

Tone and presentation....Imho, the best way to make a conclusion is by doing the direct comparation between amps you may be interested. I have recently changed an amp, went from Burmester 036 to Burmester 956mk2. They are in the same 'classic line' of Burmester products, aldo 956mk2 is bigger, more powerful and more expensive. Since the Burmester has the 'house sound' I was not expecting much differences in tone and presentation beetwen them, as all my other gear is Burmester and unchanged. Suffice to say I found out that there is a 'big' difference between them. I was even more surprised that I have discovered that there are things 'missing' with 036 that I was not aware of while listening to it. Interesting thing (to me, at least) is that I had same model, Burmester 956mk2, decade ago and in that time I have compared it to the Krell Evo 302 and in that direct comparation my attention was on some of its traits that were obvious (in comparation with Krell) but not so today when I compared it to a different amp. So, I would dare to say that in some way our minds are 'playing' with us (or at least in my case) and that conclusions that we make are based on our present references and most recent experiences. Personally, I tend not to make final conclusions about some particular amp while it plays in some system that I am not familiar with. Needles to say, all gear will sound somewhat different when paired with other gear and trying to find 'best' combination may be time consuming, so I prefer combinations with fewer possible variables, meaning systems from the same company (except the speakers) Some may argue that that is a limiting factor, but saw too many people in never ending circle of changing gear.

 

[jadedavid]

I have a newly updated version of Klaus’ Kismet amplifier (Odyssey).
Mine has upgrades not yet offered on the website.
That being said, In my system and to my ears it was clearly better than my Pass XA amp.
Highly recommended.
I leave my amp on all the time. (weather be damned).

 

[Kingrex]

I have a newly updated version of Klaus’ Kismet amplifier (Odyssey).
Mine has upgrades not yet offered on the website.
That being said, In my system and to my ears it was clearly better than my Pass XA amp.
Highly recommended.
I leave my amp on all the time. (weather be damned).

What are you listening for that lets you say one is clearly better than the other.

I was reading another Soulnote review. The author was saying the Soulnote does not have the bass other SS amps have. Less of it. But then he said that is good because SS amps sold in the USA have a mundane sound. All sort of the same. Then he tries to call it more musical. Oddly, not a single reviewer has bought the review model.

I was reading some ASR reviews. Oddly, some of the best bench tested SS amps are under $1,000. And now were back to, do specs mean anything.

 

[treitz3]

You are doing your audio journey a disservice if you rely on specs alone. They are just a guideline IMO/IME. To me? No.

Tom

 

[Kingrex]

You are doing your audio journey a disservice if you rely on specs alone. They are just a guideline IMO/IME. To me? No.

Tom

Agree.

When I was 40 and working, rolling gear to understand it was ok. Now retired and looking in a price range that makes flying to hear more than 3 more expensive than the amp itself, is troubling. No way to have any idea what is good, or shall I say, voices in a way that does not bore me.
If I.buy something new, shops have trade up deals. Not return deals.