Why, oh why, does vinyl continue to blow away digital?

No, but I consider digital playback to be substantially more accurate than analog playback.
Not sure I agree with that. For example, I am having a discomforting experience with digital cables. I have cables of two formats sPDIF and AES/EBU. The cables are identical models from the same supplier and the same lengths. The brand is Inakustik and the model is their Air Reference copper. Coming out of my Mutec reclocker they sound VERY different. The sPDIF is more present, apparently more detailed and wider band but soundstage is somewhat flattened and busy passages a bit more congested. The XLR cable moves the acoustic center downward for less apparent treble; however, depth and soundstage improve and the low end has more umph (but less resolution and articulation). Which is right? Is either right? The difference is not really subtle. The fact that people's internet also impacts the SQ (switches, etc.) is another indicator of a substantial number of small but pernicious distortions that clearly impact the timing and interpretation of the digital stream by the DAC chips.

It is like the SS vs. Tube discussion. One (SS) has clearly better Objective measurements but this doesn't translate into clearly audible superiority and many would argue it is almost the inverse of distortion level that sounds better. Of course it is the quality of the distortion not the quantity of the distortion that is having the pernicious effects. I think the same is true with digital vs. analog. Digital has clearly lower distortion but the type that is there is wholly unnatural and has no basis in nature. Analog distortions are in some sense natural in that it is fundamentally due to vibrations of a needle physically tracing a groove with squiggles. That motion gets converted to an electrical signal. Digital works in a completely different way that has no precedent in nature and so it's distortions are also wholly unnatural and therefore detectable as synthetic at exceedingly low levels.

Does digital sound cleaner than analog? Often times yes but not universally. Does it sound more "real"? Almost never because of the issues stated above.

Forget algorithms, chip sets, filters etc. it is more fundamental and wired into our evolution of how we hear and what we evolved to hear.

I recently, in my cable struggle, was listening to the very well recorded album Llyria from Nik Baertsch on ECM. After going back and forth between RCA and XLR cables, I decided to listen to the LP, which I have to see which was closer. The result was that neither were really the same as the LP. The LP had the depth of the XLR but also had more top end resolution like the RCA without flattening the soundstage. Winner was the LP.
 
This is where a good Venn diagram would be handy… the distinction between sound appreciation and music appreciation is one I make warily because it’s so not straightforward to separate the perceptual modalities used in this. I love many sounds for sound’s sake and they can also be part of music appreciation… hence the enmeshed abstraction.

I don't do diagrams. ;)
 
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Not sure I agree with that. For example, I am having a discomforting experience with digital cables. I have cables of two formats sPDIF and AES/EBU. The cables are identical models from the same supplier and the same lengths. The brand is Inakustik and the model is their Air Reference copper. Coming out of my Mutec reclocker they sound VERY different. The sPDIF is more present, apparently more detailed and wider band but soundstage is somewhat flattened and busy passages a bit more congested. The XLR cable moves the acoustic center downward for less apparent treble; however, depth and soundstage improve and the low end has more umph (but less resolution and articulation). Which is right? Is either right? The difference is not really subtle. The fact that people's internet also impacts the SQ (switches, etc.) is another indicator of a substantial number of small but pernicious distortions that clearly impact the timing and interpretation of the digital stream by the DAC chips.

It is like the SS vs. Tube discussion. One (SS) has clearly better Objective measurements but this doesn't translate into clearly audible superiority and many would argue it is almost the inverse of distortion level that sounds better. Of course it is the quality of the distortion not the quantity of the distortion that is having the pernicious effects. I think the same is true with digital vs. analog. Digital has clearly lower distortion but the type that is there is wholly unnatural and has no basis in nature. Analog distortions are in some sense natural in that it is fundamentally due to vibrations of a needle physically tracing a groove with squiggles. That motion gets converted to an electrical signal. Digital works in a completely different way that has no precedent in nature and so it's distortions are also wholly unnatural and therefore detectable as synthetic at exceedingly low levels.

Does digital sound cleaner than analog? Often times yes but not universally. Does it sound more "real"? Almost never because of the issues stated above.

Forget algorithms, chip sets, filters etc. it is more fundamental and wired into our evolution of how we hear and what we evolved to hear.

I recently, in my cable struggle, was listening to the very well recorded album Llyria from Nik Baertsch on ECM. After going back and forth between RCA and XLR cables, I decided to listen to the LP, which I have to see which was closer. The result was that neither were really the same as the LP. The LP had the depth of the XLR but also had more top end resolution like the RCA without flattening the soundstage. Winner was the LP.

Don’t take it from me, Dave McNair @Mcsnare who is a mastering engineer by profession and a contributing writer for audiophile outlets, has done numerous tests with his own recordings and Mastering’s. After listening to both the analog and digital playback of his recordings he concluded that digital IS more accurate. We can speak theoretically all day but his statements are some of the best empirical evidence and testimonials that you are going to get.
 
Don’t take it from me, Dave McNair @Mcsnare who is a mastering engineer by profession and a contributing writer for audiophile outlets, has done numerous tests with his own recordings and Mastering’s. After listening to both the analog and digital playback of his recordings he concluded that digital IS more accurate. We can speak theoretically all day but his statements are some of the best empirical evidence and testimonials that you are going to get.
Link to quotes?
 
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You have to understand that when it come to digital playback it matters at what stage and which format is used to discuss distortions so it is not quite as the distortions associated with analog playback.

Are you disputing that digital playback is more accurate than analog playback?
I am not disputing that either one is superior to the other - what I think is not what is being debated here. I am trying to understand your arguments.

I have no idea what this means: "You have to understand that when it come to digital playback it matters at what stage and which format is used to discuss distortions so it is not quite as the distortions associated with analog playback."

We don't need to continue, I think my point is clear: you have no "theory" to back up your claims that digital is more accurate.
 
Don’t take it from me, Dave McNair @Mcsnare who is a mastering engineer by profession and a contributing writer for audiophile outlets, has done numerous tests with his own recordings and Mastering’s. After listening to both the analog and digital playback of his recordings he concluded that digital IS more accurate. We can speak theoretically all day but his statements are some of the best empirical evidence and testimonials that you are going to get.
I can tell you from my own experience that NOTHING captured the sound of my voice more truly than a direct to disk recording. Not tape, not a digital recorder on DAT tape or SS storage (Tascam 24/96 PCM). Was it more distorted (it was cut with a tube powered cutter head)? Probably. Did it sound more real? Definitely.
 
I am not disputing that either one is superior to the other - what I think is not what is being debated here. I am trying to understand your arguments.

I have no idea what this means: "You have to understand that when it come to digital playback it matters at what stage and which format is used to discuss distortions so it is not quite as the distortions associated with analog playback."

We don't need to continue, I think my point is clear: you have no "theory" to back up your claims that digital is more accurate.

My formal education and professional career is in physics and electrical engineering. Not only do I understand the theories associated, but more importantly have worked with the elements and principles of analog, digital, and mixed-circuits for decades. Next time you stare up at the skies know that some of my work is up there above you.
 
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according to Wiki, Sony still owns EMI. I tried but failed to include the link, but if you search does Sony own EMI wiki should come up with a list of all their holdings. I believe that Sony will only release DSD copies of the master tapes to others and have no reason to believe that they will release music from any label they own that is not digitally sourced.

Thanks for the correction, Mark. Regardless of ownership, Warner Classics is re-issuing many great recordings on LP.



Here is a great example. A case can be made that this is the greatest (or one of the very great) Mahler 2nds.
This is an essential recording for any collection: the greatest interpretation of Mahler's Second ever placed before the public, made under ideal studio conditions and now in the best sound possible.
- Tony Duggan Review

Mahler 2 Warner Classics.jpg

The original record is hard to find and expensive in M/NM. I am happy for the reissue from Warner.

I don't know if this is true but I read it on the internet :rolleyes: :

"As of 2013, EMI UK's catalogue is owned by Warner Music Group after the acquisition of the Parlophone Label Group's assets." Parlophone had been owned by EMI.
 
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My formal education and professional career is in physics and electrical engineering. Not only do I understand the theories associated, but more importantly have worked with the elements and principles of analog, digital, and mixed-circuits for decades. Next time you stare up at the skies know that some of my work is up there above you.

Yet you can't explain why you believe that digital is more accurate than analog....
 
Yet you can't explain why you believe that digital is more accurate than analog....

The data acquisition from the grove to the stylus is not free of errors with alignments and mechanical profile differences for error-free tracking and data transfer. The mechanical to electrical conversion at the transducer is a lossy conversion to begin with. The generated analog signals degregate with distance and are sucebtible to noise. As the analog signal propagates through a circuit it attenuates and encounters phase shifts.

Digital signals on the other hand do not degrade with distance and any errors or noise on the datastream can be easily filter out and confirmed to guarantee the accuracy of the data packets transmitted from the source device to the receiver.

The above is the basic foundation of why I consider digital playback more accurate than analog playback.
 
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The data acquisition from the grove to the stylus is not free of errors with alignments and mechanical profile differences for error-free tracking and data transfer. The mechanical to electrical conversion at the transducer is a lossy conversion to begin with. The generated analog signals degregate with distance and are sucebtible to noise. As the analog signal propagates through a circuit it attenuates and encounters phase shifts.

Digital signals on the other hand do not degrade with distance and any errors or noise on the datastream can be easily filter out and confirmed to guarantee the accuracy of the data packets transmitted from the source device to the receiver.

The above is the basic foundation of why I consider digital playback more accurate than analog playback.

Indeed, the data stream can travel three times around the world and still be the same when it reaches the DAC. Then what happens?

There is no tool available today to compare music output from a DAC with the original digital signal. So the answer is: we don't know.
 
Indeed, the data stream can travel three times around the world and still be the same when it reaches the DAC. Then what happens?

There is no tool available today to compare music output from a DAC with the original digital signal. So the answer is: we don't know.

Actually we do know. The simple sine wave reconstruction test will confirm the accuracy of any DAC.
 
No. By definition, you cannot compare a complex music segment in digital format with the analog output of a DAC.

This is where having an understanding of signals and electronics helps. A music segment, no matter how complex, can be decomposed down to a collection of fundamental sine waves with different frequencies, amplitudes and phases. Look up FFT, Fast Fourier Transform analysis. With this understanding, if you do discrete pure sine waves from 20 Hz to 20 KHz you will understand and evaluate how accurately a dac can reproduce digital “music” at its analog outputs.
 
This is where having an understanding of signals and electronics helps. A music segment, no matter how complex, can be decomposed down to a collection of fundamental sine waves with different frequencies, amplitudes and phases. Look up FFT, Fast Fourier Transform analysis. With this understanding, if you do discrete pure sine waves from 20 Hz to 20 KHz you will understand and evaluate how accurately a dac can reproduce digital “music” at its analog outputs.

Theory is one thing, but the reality is that components within a DAC are not "perfect". How those imperfections translate to sound quality, no one knows.
 
Theory is one thing, but the reality is that components within a DAC are not "perfect". How those imperfections translate to sound quality, no one knows.

Your are changing the basis of this discussion and pivoting on your argument. No one has ever said that dacs are perfect or that components within are perfect so that is not what was being discussed here.
 
All the crackling and cracking of the dust particles just annoys me. I get more out of digital music played on high-quality systems. Ultimately everything is a matter of taste. If you like listening to vinyl, please do. But anyone who tries to sell me digital stuff with vinyl sound simulation should stay away. I just like what I like.
 

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