Greetings.I am new to this forum, although I have been an analogue guy for four decades, my first deck was a Thorens 150, my current unit an SME 30\12. Both suspended decks, with isolation a key feature.In recent years there have been a lot of expensive decks with no real attention to suspension at all.I read attempts to justify this on grounds such as speed stability. But is not a proper suspension a necessary condition for a genuine high end deck? And is not the main reason for a lack of quality suspension the fact that it is cheaper and easier not to bother? Or am I just an old cynic?
Why do we bother with suspension?
- Thread starter paskinn
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I currently use two out of four turntables most. One is not suspended (TW AC-3) and the other is (Townshend Rock 7). Neither on has any glaring problems by way of feedback in my system which is built around semi-active loudspeakers that are flat to the lowest frequency of my handheld measuring device (Phonic). Having said that, I don't have bouncy floors, my racks are sturdy and my shelves are vibration damping. I find the Rock to be more colored particularly in the punch region (I sell this by the way and I have no affiliation with TW). It rounds out this area. While the effect of an added sense of body is pleasing akin to a mild midbass hump in a loudspeaker, I think the TW does proper pitch better. Question is, can all of this be explained only by the suspension or lack thereof. I think not because in the deeper bass regions the Rock holds more than its own IF and only IF the damping trough is employed. That leads me to believe that the arm and cart play a significant part as well.
While I do not see too many new suspended tables out there, what I do see is a lot more use of constrained layer damping methods, cancellation instead of isolation.
While I do not see too many new suspended tables out there, what I do see is a lot more use of constrained layer damping methods, cancellation instead of isolation.
I think it is assumed that if you get an unsuspended table that you will suspend it somehow, either with platforms, vibraplane, wall studs etc. depending on your venue and circumstances. Most vibration sinks for turntables want the target resonant frequency for frequency reassignment and attenuation below 5 Hz, a difficult technical task apparently, the SME suspension system for the 30 tables claims to do this at 3 Hz or lower. Whether you want to do the "suspension" yourself or buy it included in the table is one of those controversial decisions.
I suppose the decision is controversial, but a lot of us who make unsuspended turntables intended for them to be left that way, or at the very least, ask us for some input on the matter. It is my fervent hope that mine satisfies the customer as-is.
However, I believe it would be enhanced on an active platform, but most people never go that route. I have been considering making one as an option, and have had that conversation with others who make unsuspended turntables. No one seems to know whether it is a worthwhile endeavor, aside from the ones made for personal use.
However, I believe it would be enhanced on an active platform, but most people never go that route. I have been considering making one as an option, and have had that conversation with others who make unsuspended turntables. No one seems to know whether it is a worthwhile endeavor, aside from the ones made for personal use.
A long time ago, a good friend lent me a VPI Base, which is a platform suspended on springs housed in a wooden casing. I was using a suspended table in the Ariston RD110 and I doubted if using it will improve the sound. He told me it still will. Well, I was surprised the sound was more focused and had more body, gave a warmer effect. And I ended up buying the VPI Base.
I suppose my question comes down to a simple query.....do you need isolation? My 0wn experiments over the years have suggested you do, indeed, that no high end deck can sidestep this issue ...although people can, of course, add their own isolation. But isn't that a bit like buying a new car/ and then being required to get your own gearbox?
I suppose it would depend on the situation. Springy floors have been mentioned, where the table is positioned, there's the matter of how much bass output the loudspeakers actually generate at the usual listening level and beyond. As mentioned before, suspension isn't the only way to deal with vibrations. An equally valid approach is the management of resonant frequencies through the use of materials. In the case of the springy floors, mass sure can help. Make that a dense mass and you deal with floor-borne vibration and airborne feedback to different degrees. Whatever the turntable you're going to want to put it on a solid and level surface anyway. Some of my friends that have TD124s have done away with the "mushrooms" and put the tables in heroic plinths others haven't and have kept them in smaller plinths. Both implementations work. Some tables look like they have no suspension but actually have air bladders in their feet like some TNTs and all 1200 Mk*s. My TW platter is made of different materials and is filled with a gel. The AF platter rides on air. The Continuum platters ride on oil. Many ways to skin a cat as they say.
Strictly speaking, no, proper suspension is not necessary - proper isolation is, however implemented, to make a deck true high end. The impression I got is that you have assumed the lack of suspension implies lack of isolation, but as you may read up on other high end decks like the TechDAS Air Force One here at WBF, you will probably be stunned by what others think about its isolation capabilities w/o a suspension like the one in your turntable, but implemented otherwise. Moreover, some prefer a turntable w/o any base isolation, so they can in turn make them true high end by simply employing external isolation solutions, that may actually be better than a simple rubber suspension (e.g. check out the HRS isolation platforms).
Suspensions offer advantages other than isolating their environment, they "should" also isolate motor induced noise (all motors make noise to one degree or another) from reaching the platter. Generally, I find the better suspension decks offer superior noise-floor characteristics & depth of field ... but at a cost ... absolute timing ... in which non-suspended decks have a distinct advantage. That said, pros & cons can be offset by implementation.
tb1
tb1
TBone,
Whilst what I am about to say in not meant to be a contradiction of your observation in any way, my experience has shown that some of the benefit of suspension is purely due to isolation from seismic vibration.
I use a high-class Direct Drive turntable, thus I cannot ever isolate the platter/ arm/ cartridge from the motor. Despite that fact the group of Clearaudio Magix that I use in conjunction with diy rollerball/cups and polymer damping, all work together to greatly boost the resolution of the final signal that is passed to my Moon LP 5.3 phono stage and from thence onto the rest of the system. One would think that if the direct drive motor noise was the overriding limitation of the Source, then seismic isolation wouldn't be able to effect much or any improvement at all. Yet the results illustrate to me that there is a great deal of benefit in isolating the turntable both vertically and horizontally from the concrete slab floor that the whole support sits upon.
On Audiogon a poster named 'dertonearm' has stated that the performance of the high-class Micro Seiki belt-drives(which use a separate pod for the motor but no suspension) is only somewhere around 60% of what they could be if they are not properly isolated.
This is in now way a contradiction of what you stated about suspensions which isolate the platter/arm/cartridge from the motor; merely another point to consider.
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