Why do most audiophiles don't like active speakers ?

DasguteOhr

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Sep 26, 2013
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I have heard Geithains many times and I think they are fantastic. Currently I am looking at the Geithain RL906 for a small office system. They also have great subwoofers.
Yes , the basis series are really good 11k or 12k for a office will be enough i think when you more bass.
 
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Gregm

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I have heard Geithains many times and I think they are fantastic.
Ditto. I have also heard Cabasse Pearls and liked what I heard (reasonably priced, no pretensions to ultra hi-end). For that matter I also enjoyed listening to active ATC 50s
 

stehno

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I don't need an expert, but I can handle measuring devices. You get an accelerometer from Nti and you'll know what's going on in 10 minutes.price 4k€

If you have ever spoken to Mr. Kiesler (ME Geithain), who has been building loudspeakers for 60 years, then you know that you are getting quality. They equip broadcasters, the German Bundestag and for example, the Elbphilharmonie with their speakers and sound technology.
Then tell me which active speakers you had at home, I'm open-minded and want to learn something.

P.S
If you want to see the largest anechoic chamber in Europe you have to visit Geithain. very interesting
Fair enough. Please share what and where you are measuring and why. Should be simple enough, right?

BTW, I thought you said, good-bye?
 

Gregm

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DasguteOhr

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Fair enough. Please share what and where you are measuring and why. Should be simple enough, right?

BTW, I thought you said, good-bye?
In back chamber where the fold-out active electronics sits and the heat sink of the mosfet power amplifier (outside).A friend wanted to know whether there was tuning potential with the RL 940K speakers. I couldn't detect any big peaks except for 50 Hz. We have the transformer somewhat decoupled from the metal plate. That's it, unfortunately no photos of the measurement were taken. Older model year 2006
20140530_140159bck05.jpg

When someone speaks to me, I actually always answer....
 

Molurus

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Going active is becoming more and more appealing to me, especially with some of these new multichannel dsp processors on the market.

DEQX pre-8 8 channel DSP with room correction
DEQX-Gen4-oblique-black.jpg

Or the new miniDSP HTx with multichannel inputs which allows you to run Dirac Live with Bass Control, the balanced outputs are also nice.
Flex-HTx-(front)-600px(1).png
Sun Audio Purified 4 speakers, with Purifi woofers and Bliesma tweeters, made for this kind of application apparantly.
sunaudio purified 4 loudspeakers.png

Add your favorite subwoofers and poweramps, tune them as you like, looks interesting and fun to me.

Nice developments anyway.
 

stehno

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In back chamber where the fold-out active electronics sits and the heat sink of the mosfet power amplifier (outside).A friend wanted to know whether there was tuning potential with the RL 940K speakers. I couldn't detect any big peaks except for 50 Hz. We have the transformer somewhat decoupled from the metal plate. That's it, unfortunately no photos of the measurement were taken. Older model year 2006
View attachment 120555

When someone speaks to me, I actually always answer....
Thanks for providing this. I read where you performed some type of measurement and evaluation but aside from somewhat decoupling the power supply you didn’t provide any other remedies nor explain why, so I’ve a few questions.

How were you able to discern why you needed to measure there and not elsewhere?

I don’t know what you consider a big peak, but how did you determine an acceptable threshold? And to whom is that threshold acceptable?

Doesn’t everything vibrate? IOW, just because one “can handle a measuring device” why would one assume they genuinely know what they’re doing? Couldn’t some 5-year olds handle a measuring device?

Even if you were to successfully isolate or even damp mechanical energy at the power supply, you’re obviously not making that unwanted energy evaporate, so where exactly did that unwanted energy go and where is it now being released?

When an object or area is sufficiently damped, what does it become? Better yet, what does an object become when sufficiently isolated?

How much unwanted mechanical energy do you suppose is needed for a component to be completely saturated and impossible to make sound any worse even when adding more of this same unwanted energy?

Since it seems you think yourself expert enough and performing some sort of due diligence, I’ve a few more questions.

You mention you somewhat decoupled the transformer? Isn’t that kinda’ like being somewhat pregnant? For example. If my goal was to isolate energy so that lamp’s lightbulb will no longer illuminate so I “somewhat” cut the power cord but the bulb still illuminates, was my effort a success or failure?

What is the source of a transformer/power supply’s unwanted mechanical energy? Don’t power supplies impact sound quality and are they not pretty good sources for generating unwanted mechanical energy? I’m aware of some designers who sensed potential sonic issues with power supplies and their solution was to put the power supply in its own chassis – separate from all the other component internals - and with very little benefit I might add. In a similar sense, is this not what you are attempting when you somewhat decouple but keep everything together internally? IOW, are you not attempting to isolate the power supply and its ill-effects from all other internals via your unsuccessful attempt to decouple it from its mounting plate?

Obviously, you think decoupling the PS offers performance benefits or you wouldn’t waste your time. But what if you were able to genuinely entirely decouple the PS from its mounting plate, what have you accomplished? And why do you think trapping all that unwanted energy (that’s already wreaking some sonic havoc) at its source (the PS) is a good thing? Doesn’t energy want to travel away from its point source? When you trap that energy at its point source, did you genuinely remedy the problem or did you just exacerbate the problem at least with the power supply that's already compromising sonics?

What exactly are you really attempting to accomplish here?

I can’t help but think back 10 years ago when in another forum a renowned expert claimed he performed sufficient vibration testing on his designs by flicking his finger on his designs’ top plates and he whimsically called it the ding test. He was none too thrilled when I whimsically suggested he rename it the ding-a-ling test. But seriously, do you think he was performing due diligence with his flick of a finger or was he just offering a half-assed or token effort perhaps based on one or more preconceived narratives that he adhered to? In the end how are your efforts any different than his?

I’m curious. Why did you say earlier that you need not be an expert since you can easily handle measuring devices? Do you think the ability to handle a measuring device provides sufficient enough expertise? Do you really think it’s just all about measuring vibrations here and there? Better yet, since everything vibrates to one degree or another, I'm curious where you got the notion that in order to supposedly sufficiently remedy unwanted mechanical energies, you even need to measure vibrations at any object in the first place?

Lastly, you said, "You get an accelerometer from Nti and you'll know what's going on in 10 minutes.price 4k€". Actually, I need no such thing. You say you did this work back in 2006 and presumably you've been using that accelerometer from Nti at least since then. I've never used an accelerometer as this subject has nothing whatsoever to do with measuring vibrations (think preconceived narrative) and yet not knowing you nor your equipment, in one post and setting I just gave you a glimpse of what's really going on. In fact, I would venture that if one were to attempt to measure, any findings would only lead them astray as perhaps substantiated here - which BTW is exactly what preconceived narratives are known to do.
 
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Rexp

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The best studio monitors I've heard are passive (ATC, Quested). I haven't tried an active design with the amp outside the box though...
 

DasguteOhr

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Thanks for providing this. I read where you performed some type of measurement and evaluation but aside from somewhat decoupling the power supply you didn’t provide any other remedies nor explain why, so I’ve a few questions.

How were you able to discern why you needed to measure there and not elsewhere?
Why should I measure somewhere else than where the amplifier electronics are? Components react negatively to extreme vibration. i.e. where the amp is mounted.
I don’t know what you consider a big peak, but how did you determine an acceptable threshold? And to whom is that threshold acceptable?

Doesn’t everything vibrate? IOW, just because one “can handle a measuring device” why would one assume they genuinely know what they’re doing? Couldn’t some 5-year olds handle a measuring device?

Even if you were to successfully isolate or even damp mechanical energy at the power supply, you’re obviously not making that unwanted energy evaporate, so where exactly did that unwanted energy go and where is it now being released?

When an object or area is sufficiently damped, what does it become? Better yet, what does an object become when sufficiently isolated?
I learned a profession in electrical engineering and acquired a certain level of knowledge through my hobby of building speakers and tube electronics. i'm not an expert.
On the subject of the NTI measuring device, I borrowed it back in 2015 and had it explained how to measure. In order to optimize my Thorens TD 124 (to reduce the noise. The more I think about it, it wasn't so smart to buy it myself. It can do pretty much everything Measure what is relevant in audio technology (oscilloscope, frequency responses, RT 60 measurements, noise and vibrations.)
To measure, we played pink noise 20hz-20khz at 90db with the speakers and then measured on the back of the speaker in the chamber for the active electronics and the plate on which the amplifiers are mounted. Since these are cardioid loudspeakers, you don't have to worry about rear airborne noise; the sound pressure in the room can hardly increase the vibration. There were three peaks that were more than 20 dB above the noise floor.
How much unwanted mechanical energy do you suppose is needed for a component to be completely saturated and impossible to make sound any worse even when adding more of this same unwanted energy?

Since it seems you think yourself expert enough and performing some sort of due diligence, I’ve a few more questions.

You mention you somewhat decoupled the transformer? Isn’t that kinda’ like being somewhat pregnant? For example. If my goal was to isolate energy so that lamp’s lightbulb will no longer illuminate so I “somewhat” cut the power cord but the bulb still illuminates, was my effort a success or failure?

What is the source of a transformer/power supply’s unwanted mechanical energy? Don’t power supplies impact sound quality and are they not pretty good sources for generating unwanted mechanical energy? I’m aware of some designers who sensed potential sonic issues with power supplies and their solution was to put the power supply in its own chassis – separate from all the other component internals - and with very little benefit I might add. In a similar sense, is this not what you are attempting when you somewhat decouple but keep everything together internally? IOW, are you not attempting to isolate the power supply and its ill-effects from all other internals via your unsuccessful attempt to decouple it from its mounting plate?
After decoupling, the 50hz peak almost disappeared. I would have simply replaced the transformer on my speakers. A mechanically quiet new transformer and the matter would be over.
If you never want to sell the speaker again, you can make major modifications. But since it was a friend's speaker, I decided to just make modifications that can be easily reversed. Have you ever tried to sell modified devices, no matter how well you do it, it's difficult to get them sold again. If you demonstrate the effect to someone they will accept it, but in this day and age of online trading I guarantee that if the buyer finds the modifications you will immediately be sued.
Obviously, you think decoupling the PS offers performance benefits or you wouldn’t waste your time. But what if you were able to genuinely entirely decouple the PS from its mounting plate, what have you accomplished? And why do you think trapping all that unwanted energy (that’s already wreaking some sonic havoc) at its source (the PS) is a good thing? Doesn’t energy want to travel away from its point source? When you trap that energy at its point source, did you genuinely remedy the problem or did you just exacerbate the problem at least with the power supply that's already compromising sonics?

What exactly are you really attempting to accomplish here?

I can’t help but think back 10 years ago when in another forum a renowned expert claimed he performed sufficient vibration testing on his designs by flicking his finger on his designs’ top plates and he whimsically called it the ding test. He was none too thrilled when I whimsically suggested he rename it the ding-a-ling test. But seriously, do you think he was performing due diligence with his flick of a finger or was he just offering a half-assed or token effort perhaps based on one or more preconceived narratives that he adhered to? In the end how are your efforts any different than his?

I’m curious. Why did you say earlier that you need not be an expert since you can easily handle measuring devices? Do you think the ability to handle a measuring device provides sufficient enough expertise? Do you really think it’s just all about measuring vibrations here and there? Better yet, since everything vibrates to one degree or another, I'm curious where you got the notion that in order to supposedly sufficiently remedy unwanted mechanical energies, you even need to measure vibrations at any object in the first place?

Lastly, you said, "You get an accelerometer from Nti and you'll know what's going on in 10 minutes.price 4k€". Actually, I need no such thing. You say you did this work back in 2006 and presumably you've been using that accelerometer from Nti at least since then. I've never used an accelerometer as this subject has nothing whatsoever to do with measuring vibrations (think preconceived narrative) and yet not knowing you nor your equipment, in one post and setting I just gave you a glimpse of what's really going on. In fact, I would venture that if one were to attempt to measure, any findings would only lead them astray as perhaps substantiated here - which BTW is exactly what preconceived narratives are known to do.
you should read correctly the speaker was not the measuring device from 2006. If you would like to see a video about NTI and how vibration measurements are made. unfortunately in German with a Swiss accent.:D
 

admin1959

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stehno

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Why should I measure somewhere else than where the amplifier electronics are? Components react negatively to extreme vibration. i.e. where the amp is mounted.

...

Indeed they do. Thanks for sharing your perspective, Stephan. But obviously our perspectives are quite contrasting.
 
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JackD201

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I own quite a few active loudspeakers but they are for utilitarian purposes. I have ADAM Artist 3s and 5s for workstations and as DJ monitors. I have a set of Turbosound IP-2000s in the beach house. Turbosound active mid highs and 18" subs for parties where we have bands, LD Systems Maui Porsche Design in the living room for when the kids have their parties. All these combined wouldn't pay for any single component in my main system. They do get the job done very well in my opinion and definitely do the high spl, open air job better than my main system could so really another horses for courses deal here. I guess you can call all the systems in my current cars active too since they are all multi-amped with DSP XO.

Now have I ever considered actives for primary, personal music listening? I have yet to come across a set that ticks all the boxes. There are many impressive examples already mentioned in this thread, fact is, I simply haven't seen any in the flesh. I always try to remain open minded but it can get very hard when there are two really talked about actives over the years that have fallen extremely short of the hype and are simply exercises of brute force in forcibly small enclosures and crazy excursion to get the bass out. That is a prevailing mental image of actives that cause me negative bias.
 

sigbergaudio

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Good question and IMO, absolutely. I was gonna mention it in my original post but doing so would have clouded my original point a bit, especially since I own 2 powered subs. :)

I think it worth noting that there are very few choices for passive subs these days and the potential can of worms that go with passive subs. But a powered / active sub's performance ought to suffer likewise and ought to be just as performance limiting for the fequency range it covers.

Suffer and be performance limiting how exactly?
 

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