What are the Top Horn Speakers in the World Today? Vox Olympian vs Avantgarde Trio vs ???

Your question reveals a misunderstanding of natural sound and why I think my system thread was so contentious. There were many comments suggesting that natural sound is all about typology. Vinyl, SET, horns. That is not it. I listed on the first page of that thread what I heard from each of the natural sounding systems in Utah. This was a list of common attributes that made each system sound a particular way, and I and others describe that as natural sound. I never once mentioned components or typologies in that list. But people claimed I was talking about vintage sound, or only vinyl, and SETs and horns.

One aspect of natural sound is the ability for the system to disappear. It disappears because it does not draw attention to itself. It does not emphasize anything. There is a sense of balance. Edit: I should add that there needs to be a sufficient amount of clarity and energy so that you turn to the realism of what you’re hearing rather than thinking, something is missing from the presentation.

The six systems I just described here disappear precisely because they did not draw attention to themselves. It doesn’t have anything to do with typology. These are examples that I’ve heard of different typologies that all share this characteristic.

I am not suggesting, nor did I write anywhere, that those same components, configured differently in different combinations and rooms would disappear the way they did in those specific cases. I’m not speaking in generalities. I am describing something very specific because you asked me for specific examples. I am not drawing any conclusions about the dealer, the brands, the set ups, the typologies. I do not think in those terms anymore. I only listen to the result. And there are different ways to get that result.
I'm going to add one extra to this. This has always been my goal too- the system should connect you to the musical event such that you're not thinking about the system:

The extra bit, when you know you are 'in the zone' is when the system is able to generate sounds (including voices) that are so real that your sense of suspension of disbelief is bypassed entirely (all audiophiles exercise a suspension of disbelief) and causes you to start and wonder where it came from. I've had the experience of playing my system and realizing someone had invaded my home and was mocking me by singing along with my stereo!! I snapped my head around and no-one was there!

I've had others confirm this experience: its spooky.
 
The extra bit, when you know you are 'in the zone' is when the system is able to generate sounds (including voices) that are so real that your sense of suspension of disbelief is bypassed entirely (all audiophiles exercise a suspension of disbelief) and causes you to start and wonder where it came from. I've had the experience of playing my system and realizing someone had invaded my home and was mocking me by singing along with my stereo!! I snapped my head around and no-one was there!
I personally would never allege this far. I would never claim that "suspension of disbelief is bypassed entirely," which means you completely, 100%, genuinely and authentically, literally believe you're in Walt Disney Concert Hall.

But then I don't do hallucinogenic drugs.:p
 
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I'm going to add one extra to this. This has always been my goal too- the system should connect you to the musical event such that you're not thinking about the system:

The extra bit, when you know you are 'in the zone' is when the system is able to generate sounds (including voices) that are so real that your sense of suspension of disbelief is bypassed entirely (all audiophiles exercise a suspension of disbelief) and causes you to start and wonder where it came from. I've had the experience of playing my system and realizing someone had invaded my home and was mocking me by singing along with my stereo!! I snapped my head around and no-one was there!

I've had others confirm this experience: its spooky.
btw you mentioned using multiple subs to even out room nodes:
I´m going to test 2 NNNN Devor 40s with Powersoft modules behind my listening pos to fill in a severe dip at 40-60Hz originating from RCH
I´m having a session asap with a couple of capable friends to get impuls response, phase and integration as perfect as possible...one is the designer of my sub horns and the Devor 40s
I need about 25msec delay to hit 9m distance from subhorn driver diaphragm to behind sofa
 
I personally would never allege this far. I would never claim that "suspension of disbelief is bypassed entirely," which means you completely, 100%, genuinely and authentically, literally believe you're in Walt Disney Concert Hall.

But then I don't do hallucinogenic drugs.:p
Neither do I. I'm just commenting that on occasion the system does something like that that is so startling that suspension of disbelief has nothing to do with it.

BTW no system will make you believe your in Walt Disney Concert Hall. The best 2-channel model I've come up with is the system can seem a bit like the TARDIS in that it can move the front of your room to be grafted onto an occurring musical experience that can be heard thru the front wall which disappears when the TARDIS function is invoked. 'TARDIS' is a Dr. Who reference for those not into scifi.
btw you mentioned using multiple subs to even out room nodes:
I´m going to test 2 NNNN Devor 40s with Powersoft modules behind my listening pos to fill in a severe dip at 40-60Hz originating from RCH
I´m having a session asap with a couple of capable friends to get impuls response, phase and integration as perfect as possible...one is the designer of my sub horns and the Devor 40s
I need about 25msec delay to hit 9m distance from subhorn driver diaphragm to behind sofa
If your subs are operating below about 80Hz you won't have to bother with delays. At that frequency in most rooms (unless its the size of a ballroom) the bass has bounced all over the room before your ear can sort out what the bass note is. This is due to the length of the bass note- at 80Hz is 14 feet and so is 28 feet at 40 Hz. On this account the bass is 100% reverberant and delays are simply not needed.
 
the sub horns are lopassed at 65
we´ll find out.....the room volume is pretty large...about 250cubic meters open space
the longest distance on same floor from RCH subhorn is about 33feet
 
Neither do I. I'm just commenting that on occasion the system does something like that that is so startling that suspension of disbelief has nothing to do with it.
Fair enough. I know what you're talking about.

I might call that a very momentary complete suspension of disbelief.
 
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the sub horns are lopassed at 65
we´ll find out.....the room volume is pretty large...about 250cubic meters open space
the longest distance on same floor from RCH subhorn is about 33feet
So it takes the entire waveform passing your ear to know the note is there. It takes a few more iterations to know what the note is.

In a 33 foot length, this means that at 80Hz, maybe one iteration has passed the ear before the waveform bounces assuming the listening position is perhaps in the middle of the room and the speakers are against the front wall. By the time your ear knows the note the first iteration has bounced off the rear and has already passed your ear again. So maybe at that frequency the note is 80-90% reverberant.

That's at 80Hz.

If we're talking 40Hz (low E on a string bass) then the ear simply won't know the note until the note is 100% reverberant.

So if you cross over the subs at 60Hz and use a steep slope they will not attract attention to themselves, you can use a mono bass signal and you can place them anywhere in the room. Some places will be better than others depending on standing waves that may be present in the room.
 
So it takes the entire waveform passing your ear to know the note is there. It takes a few more iterations to know what the note is.

In a 33 foot length, this means that at 80Hz, maybe one iteration has passed the ear before the waveform bounces assuming the listening position is perhaps in the middle of the room and the speakers are against the front wall. By the time your ear knows the note the first iteration has bounced off the rear and has already passed your ear again. So maybe at that frequency the note is 80-90% reverberant.

That's at 80Hz.

If we're talking 40Hz (low E on a string bass) then the ear simply won't know the note until the note is 100% reverberant.

So if you cross over the subs at 60Hz and use a steep slope they will not attract attention to themselves, you can use a mono bass signal and you can place them anywhere in the room. Some places will be better than others depending on standing waves that may be present in the room.
super interesting and fascinating in the persuit for the last marginal %
 
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I personally would never allege this far. I would never claim that "suspension of disbelief is bypassed entirely," which means you completely, 100%, genuinely and authentically, literally believe you're in Walt Disney Concert Hall.

But then I don't do hallucinogenic drugs.:p

Agreed. It is very hard, ne impossible, with your eyes wide open and with full energy of a real orchestra. So Walt Disney Concert Hall is out. But, with eyes closed loosely, the sound of a cello, piano, clarinet, or trio can be shockingly close, imo, on the best systems. Ralph was describing a single voice, not a full orchestra.
 
I listed six systems above which all disappeared and allowed me to focus on the music rather than the system. I did not say each system sounds the same. Nor did I say I liked each system equally or that each presented the music with the same degree of naturalism.

We all make our choices and I chose to buy the system that presents the music as closely to my favorite system on that list.
Can these different degrees of naturalism be described in any way?
 
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Can these different degrees of naturalism be described in any way?

That’s an excellent question. I think of it like hearing a piano being played in another room. You know it is a piano and not a harpsichord. You know it is a live piano and not a recording of a piano. As you move closer to the open door of the room, you start to sense the energy of the instrument. You pass through the door opening and take a seat in the room and start listening to the music. You see and appreciate the emotion on the players face and body. You begin to hear more nuance in the playing and the ambience of the room. You become more engaged. The sound energy and the beauty of the music now more fully captivate your attention.

These are the different degrees of natural sound. Never do you not think you are listening to a live piano.
 
Agreed. It is very hard, ne impossible, with your eyes wide open and with full energy of a real orchestra. So Walt Disney Concert Hall is out. But, with eyes closed loosely, the sound of a cello, piano, clarinet, or trio can be shockingly close, imo, on the best systems. Ralph was describing a single voice, not a full orchestra.
That voice thing is simply one phenomena. I've had percussion do something like that too- as well as other instruments. I mentioned the voice thing since its the creepiest example. You don't expect someone is in the room with you when you're home alone...
 
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That’s an excellent question. I think of it like hearing a piano being played in another room. You know it is a piano and not a harpsichord. You know it is a live piano and not a recording of a piano. As you move closer to the open door of the room, you start to sense the energy of the instrument. You pass through the door opening and take a seat in the room and start listening to the music. You see and appreciate the emotion on the players face and body. You begin to hear more nuance in the playing and the ambience of the room. You become more engaged. The sound energy and the beauty of the music now more fully captivate your attention.

These are the different degrees of natural sound. Never do you not think you are listening to a live piano.

So when you got better Lamm's you found that you finally moved in the room? Sorry I find the whole analogy misleading.

Stereo sound reproduction is a compromise of many factors and how we perceive them. We could do a similar analogy using cotton balls and it would be equally misleading. Commenting sound quality needs holistic views and analysis.

(...) You see and appreciate the emotion on the players face and body. (...)

Nice to know that now visuals became are part of "natural sound" ... ;)
 
That voice thing is simply one phenomena. I've had percussion do something like that too- as well as other instruments. I mentioned the voice thing since its the creepiest example. You don't expect someone is in the room with you when you're home alone...

Ralph, I can relate to your post as I have experienced something similar. I am astonished at how natural the best systems can sound and how convincing they are at presenting certain types of music.
 
Visited the Serpentine Gallery today. Listened to Klangfilm and WE albeit at low volume but it sounded wonderful. Worth a visit for the art too.
IMG_8368.jpegIMG_8364.jpegIMG_0158.jpeg
 
I'm going to add one extra to this. This has always been my goal too- the system should connect you to the musical event such that you're not thinking about the system:

The extra bit, when you know you are 'in the zone' is when the system is able to generate sounds (including voices) that are so real that your sense of suspension of disbelief is bypassed entirely (all audiophiles exercise a suspension of disbelief) and causes you to start and wonder where it came from. I've had the experience of playing my system and realizing someone had invaded my home and was mocking me by singing along with my stereo!! I snapped my head around and no-one was there!

I've had others confirm this experience: its spooky.
I have even had imagery helicopters flying outside my 26 floor balcony ! And i was sober ! :oops:
 
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And a couple more for you General.IMG_8358.jpegIMG_0160.jpegIMG_0159.jpegIMG_8362.jpegIMG_0154.jpeg
 

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