What are the Top Horn Speakers in the World Today? Vox Olympian vs Avantgarde Trio vs ???

[Atmasphere]

when you add horn sub to "fullrange" hornsystem, the whole system snaps into focus
all other subs I know of are not capable of blending in properly

Its the 'I know of' part that might be a problem here. I've seen subs blend quite well in systems where corner horns were used. The trick is usually to make sure they don't attract attention by keeping their maximum frequency below about 80Hz. When you get above that frequency (or somewhere near it) it becomes more important to have that output near the other drivers in the main speakers.

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

I lopass at 65 below dual FLH midbasses up to 550

 

[microstrip]

Anyone tried using stereo swarm subs? All diagrams I saw placed one sub in each wall.

 

[Robh3606]

Anyone tried using stereo swarm subs? All diagrams I saw placed one sub in each wall.

How's that going to work?

Rob

 

[Duke LeJeune]

Anyone tried using stereo swarm subs? All diagrams I saw placed one sub in each wall.

There are several different placement strategies I have found useful, most of which are deliberately asymmetrical. And yes placement could be optimized for stereo. I'd still suggest a fair amount of distribution of the bass sources in the horizontal plane, so maybe subs on three rather than four walls. The set-up strategy used would depend on the specific room and situation.

(I realize the word "swarm" does not necessarily refer to my four-small-subs system which goes by the same name, but imo the same basic principles apply to distributed multi-sub systems in general.)

I think a swarm is a great solution to bass. But it does take the 4 speakers. The amplifiers, the crossovers. And there are tools and skill required to dial them in. Its a $15,000 project if your hiring a pro to set it up and show you how you might tweak it when they are gone.

And they do take up room all over. Maybe not in places you want them. If your lucky, they end up next to chairs like tables.

The placement of no one sub is critical, so there is actually quite a bit of placement flexibility with a distributed multi-sub system. The general idea is to get them spread around asymmetrically with no more than one in a corner. Without knowing your situation (including room size and SPL requirements) I couldn't say whether fifteen grand including expert calibration is on the high side, but I think it may be.

In my opinion J. R. Boisclair is the foremost expert on setting up a distributed multi-sub system. He uses his own, original, innovative and measurements-intensive approach that ime works extremely well.

 

[Kingrex]

There are several different placement strategies I have found useful, most of which are deliberately asymmetrical. And yes placement could be optimized for stereo. I'd still suggest a fair amount of distribution of the bass sources in the horizontal plane, so maybe subs on three rather than four walls. The set-up strategy used would depend on the specific room and situation.

(I realize the word "swarm" does not necessarily refer to my four-small-subs system which goes by the same name, but imo the same basic principles apply to distributed multi-sub systems in general.)



The placement of no one sub is critical, so there is actually quite a bit of placement flexibility with a distributed multi-sub system. The general idea is to get them spread around asymmetrically with no more than one in a corner. Without knowing your situation (including room size and SPL requirements) I couldn't say whether fifteen grand including expert calibration is on the high side, but I think it may be.

In my opinion J. R. Boisclair is the foremost expert on setting up a distributed multi-sub system. He uses his own, original, innovative and measurements-intensive approach that ime works extremely well.

When you add JR in, the price goes up. But its done right. Anyone could attach some Dayton amps to them and go to town. But they would have little idea what speaker is doing what. JR wanted me to get an Ashley Protea preamp/crossover so you could sit in the chair and dial each sub. if you have to get up, it so much harder. And if your not using tools, you wont get an ideal response. That is my belief. I was surprised how well I dialed in my Horn sub. But that is 1 sub and the crossover/amp is in my lap. and I did use some tools.

 

[Hornsolutions Swen]

Just so I understand what’s being talked about and why.
I always struggle a bit with these newly coined technical terms.

So, a simple question: When you talk about "swarm-setups” do you mean a Double Bass Array (DBA) setups, i.e., an advanced form of the multi-subwoofer technique (also called “Schwarmaufstellung”)?


Best regards S

 

[bonzo75]

also called “Schwarmaufstellung”

Lamb Schwarmaufstellung

 

[Hornsolutions Swen]

Lamb Schwarmaufstellung

Is there any source that thoroughly explains the technical aspects and proves the effectiveness of this?


If I interpret your short response correctly, this is NOT about a Double Bass Array?


And there’s no information on the web about a “Lamb Swarm Bass/Subwoofer Array.”


So, it would be nice if you could be at least a bit more detailed in your response, since you’re already answering.


Furthermore, I don’t remotely understand what this has to do with the best horn loudspeakers. Especially the “best in the world” should be able to manage without a subwoofer, right?


Best regards,


S

 

[bonzo75]

Is there any source that thoroughly explains the technical aspects and proves the effectiveness of this?

Sorry that was just a pun on the German word Schwarmaufstellung and

 

[microstrip]

There are several different placement strategies I have found useful, most of which are deliberately asymmetrical. And yes placement could be optimized for stereo. I'd still suggest a fair amount of distribution of the bass sources in the horizontal plane, so maybe subs on three rather than four walls. The set-up strategy used would depend on the specific room and situation.

(I realize the word "swarm" does not necessarily refer to my four-small-subs system which goes by the same name, but imo the same basic principles apply to distributed multi-sub systems in general.)

Thanks. In fact as far as I remember from the Earl Geddes articles, sometimes he addressed three subwoofers.

I have read your past contributions in WBF and ASR on the subject, I thing they are worth referring to in this thread - members can easily find them.

The placement of no one sub is critical, so there is actually quite a bit of placement flexibility with a distributed multi-sub system. The general idea is to get them spread around asymmetrically with no more than one in a corner. Without knowing your situation (including room size and SPL requirements) I couldn't say whether fifteen grand including expert calibration is on the high side, but I think it may be.

My main listening room issue is that the subs in the front corners create a wide null in the listening position around 30 Hz. irrespective of phase adjustment, I have to position them in the back corners. The room is about 20x30 feet.

Some users of large Wilson Audio subwoofers reported excellent results adding distributed Loke subs ..

 

[Kingrex]

It is not a double bass array. The Audio Kinesis is 4 individual subs. They come in 10 inch or 12 inch drivers. In the 10 inch version, the cabinets are 12 inch wide, 12 inch deep and 20 inch tall. They have ports that can be plugged or left open. Each sub box is just a driver and box. You need an amp and crossover.

The subs enclosures are places around the room. They are not designed to sit next to you main speakers. Maybe 1 or 2 do, but they are really designed to be set around the room in such a fashion that the subs interact with each other to cancel standing waves in the room.

Each sub therefore needs its own amp and crossover to control the frequency, slope, gain and phase. You are using placement and the gain, frequency to counteract unwanted standing waves.

A pro like JR is a must as he has software to analyze what each individual sub is doing, and what they are all doing in the room.
A single crossover is ideal as it is a single load the preamp is seeing. If you were to use 4 Dayton plate amps, your preamp would see 4 loads, plus your main speakers and it may not have enough power to drive it all. A single crossover also allows the person tuning to sit in the seat and use their ears for final dialing them in. A single crossover also allows the 4 amps to sit right behind each speaker to drive the individual speakers.

There are Dayton plate amps with crossover that can be accessed by a phone app. So maybe a solution can be used as such. But again, you may then need another crossover to sit between the preamps and the 4 dayton plate amp/crossover to have the preamp see the appropriate gain to drive.

Any class D amp can be used. You could probably get away with using a $200 class D amp with 100 to 250 watts of power. You could also move up to say an Orchard Audio or and Odyssey mono amplifier behind each sub. That is going to push you more into the $1200 to $2000 per amp price.

You could use a single Yamaha pro audio crossover/amplifier. The downside is you now have long speaker cables running around the room. I have a long cable to mine. I am using a flat ribbon cable from Amazon that cost about $50 for a 30 foot role. Its actually a pretty amazing cable for the use. I can not tell the difference between a 3 foot strip and a 20 foot strip. You can peal the backing off this stuff and adhere it to the wall and paint over it so you don't know its there. Mine us just slopped across the floor as that does allow me to keep the run shorter. If I tried to get all fancy, I may well have a 35 to 40 foot cable that would in my mind, be to long.

 

[Kingrex]

You don't have to buy these subs. You can go to Dayton ,get a knock down sealed box and a 10 inch driver. The boxes are around $300 and the drivers about the same. You have to put the box together with glue, a nail bun and some good clamps. But they appear to be solid well built boxes. Then you want to finish them.

 

[Kingrex]

Lastly, the swarm of subs are not only interacting with themselves. If you have bass modes coming from the main speakers, the swarm will also interact with those and can be used to fill a hole or cancel a peak. They are very versatile.

 

[PeterA]

Furthermore, I don’t remotely understand what this has to do with the best horn loudspeakers. Especially the “best in the world” should be able to manage without a subwoofer, right?


Best regards,


S

Good point, Swen. I deleted my posts about the swarm subs. That discussion should be elsewhere. I am enjoying this mostly horn based thread, and I wonder what criteria you would use to determine what the best horn system in the world actually is. Perhaps there is no single best, but what do the group of horns considered to be best all have in common?

EDIT: I think both the Vox Olympian and the Avantgarde Trios use separate bass horns. Are they simply considered part of the horn system? I guess that raises another question: What frequency response is considered sufficient for inclusion to the "best" or group of "best" horn speakers?

 

[Atmasphere]

Anyone tried using stereo swarm subs? All diagrams I saw placed one sub in each wall.

I only run a pair, but my main speakers are flat to 20Hz so I only needed a pair to finish the bass array.

How's that going to work?

Rob

If the sub is placed so the driver is at a 45 degree angle to the wall, forcing the sound wave to bounce at that angle like a cue ball, a pair set in that fashion might work quite well.

So, a simple question: When you talk about "swarm-setups” do you mean a Double Bass Array (DBA) setups, i.e., an advanced form of the multi-subwoofer technique (also called “Schwarmaufstellung”)?

No. 'DBA' in this case means Distributed Bass Array.

Each sub therefore needs its own amp and crossover to control the frequency, slope, gain and phase. You are using placement and the gain, frequency to counteract unwanted standing waves.

This statement is incorrect. You can use a single amp and crossover to drive the entire array. This is because at the frequencies at which they are active, bass is 100% reverberant.

You don't have to buy these subs. You can go to Dayton ,get a knock down sealed box and a 10 inch driver. The boxes are around $300 and the drivers about the same. You have to put the box together with glue, a nail bun and some good clamps. But they appear to be solid well built boxes. Then you want to finish them.

The advantage of the Audiokinesis subs is the smaller 10" they use is faster and due to the intention of placing them against the wall, its much easier to make room for them and they are smaller at the same time.

 

[microstrip]

(...) Furthermore, I don’t remotely understand what this has to do with the best horn loudspeakers.

In fact it does. Many users and people interested in horns use subs.

Especially the “best in the world” should be able to manage without a subwoofer, right?

Your comment officially opens this thread to another interesting subject involving subs!

 

[Atmasphere]

Good point, Swen. I deleted my posts about the swarm subs. That discussion should be elsewhere. I am enjoying this mostly horn based thread, and I wonder what criteria you would use to determine what the best horn system in the world actually is. Perhaps there is no single best, but what do the group of horns considered to be best all have in common?

EDIT: I think both the Vox Olympian and the Avantgarde Trios use separate bass horns. Are they simply considered part of the horn system? I guess that raises another question: What frequency response is considered sufficient for inclusion to the "best" or group of "best" horn speakers?

Emphasis added: not at all! I apologize as I really thought I could not talk about this again to you!

The thing is, in most rooms you have standing waves at bass frequencies which is the result of the length of the waveform. At 80Hz that's 14 feet; at 40Hz its 28 feet. It does not matter if your speakers are horns that are flat to 20Hz if you have a standing wave canceling amplifier and speaker energy at the listening position!

You can try to treat the room with bass traps but to kill standing waves the traps would have to move dynamically about the room to really be effective. You can try using room correction DSP to deal with it, but if bass is being canceled it really won't matter how much amplifier power the DSP tells the amp to make- it will get canceled anyway.

The only way to really get around this problem is subs arranged as a DBA. So if you have the very best full range horn system ever made, you'll likely still need subs to break up standing waves in the listening room.

So the discussion about DBAs is germane to any discussion about loudspeaker types like horns unless getting the most out of the system isn't important.

My feeling is if you go through all that trouble and cost to set up a decent system only to have it shut down by a problem that is easily and inexpensively solved (compared to the rest of the system) why not do that? Anything worth doing is worth doing well.

 

[bonzo75]

In fact it does. Many users and people interested in horns use subs.

Many users and people interested? You mean like readers who stop by to view the chat on thread?

 

[Kingrex]

This statement is incorrect. You can use a single amp and crossover to drive the entire array. This is because at the frequencies at which they are active, bass is 100% reverberant.

I'm not going to say your wrong. I would agree. A single amp and.crossover would work. If you spent the time, and it would help to have tools, to strategically place the subs around the room.

Being that people with a horn system, or any high end system are looking for the very best, I still believe investing in 4 amps and crossovers, and paying JR to dial it in will give, the best performance.

And I also too feel.it does pertain to horns as many of the horns I have heard sound a little thin. When compared to say a wilson/magico type speaker. Good bass support will bring a sense of heft and body that "might" be lacking. Adding a sub to my system that is only going to about 45 herts was a big add. I would love to get to even 25 hertz.