Wadax Reference Dac and Server arrive

Al M.

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Sep 10, 2013
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While I can never go back to a CD transport, I agree with your other comments.

I am not the one you need to convince on this one!

I know, but your post gave the perfect opportunity for my "usual rant" (sorry, folks).

Frankly, this is one of the main reasons why I am committed to Taiko Audio. They agree with your assessment of the complications associated with computer audio.

If I ever were to venture into computer audio, I would want to do it as well with ready made, expensive solutions indeed -- budget allowing.
 

morricab

Well-Known Member
Apr 25, 2014
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I'm not sure how much comparing of digital Mike did with stored files. Would be interesting to know how they differ.

I am starting to understand a large part of what may make the Wadax perform the way it does is algorithm error correction software. Not so much the hardware. Not that harware is not critical . It is. But software matters.

And this is not OS software. Its filter software. Like what you do in HQ Player. But the wadax has their own filter and way they have applied it. I am told this software is very important with streaming. It may not be as important with harware that bypasses the kernel. As in a CD transport such as the Jays Audio transport.

I am told if I want to get the most out of a DAC, give it the most direct data stream that bypasses the kernel. That means I have to burn files to a CD, then use the transport as a playback device.

I did sit my 3 sources the other day. The tape definitely acts more like Mikes system. The vinyl too. Accept I can now more hear the deficiencies in my cartridge and phono pre. Then there is digital. Streaming really sucks. It just does for certain types of music. If you want suspended disbelief in piano or strings, its not happening with streaming. But move to files on the hard drive and we are a step closer. I heard it moving the right way. I may spring for a Jays transport one day. I would just prefer to find an SD player that operates the same way as a transport. For now I have to accept how digital functions and understand its limitations.

Others who don't want to go wadax may want to start trying other input sources to their DAC. Get away from the USB/server relationship. Yes, I understand that is a hard stop for most as streaming is a door to so much music. But until good filter/ereor correction software becomes more ubiquitous in affordable brands, streaming is going to be hindered. Good, even great harware, PS, vibration isolation, shielding, filtering etc only go so far. It's only 1 way to deal with digital noise. It is critical. But it seems software is needed to fix some of the damage inherent in how a server/DAC interface together.
LessLoss makes a SD card player that they claim is the ultimate digital transport...the price is rather extreme but in many ways so is the player . Don’t know anyone who has tried it...
 

nonesup

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Feb 15, 2017
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my Extreme is going to a new happy owner. i'm buying the Wadax Reference Server.

on Friday night my friend Victor, who owns is an MSB Select 2 and is an Extreme owner, came over to assist with the compare. Victor also brought a Gigaswitch and LPS to optimize the copper Ethernet that both the Wadax and Extreme would use. both the Extreme and Wadax server were sitting on Dazia's. we used TAS for the Extreme, and Roon obviously for the Wadax. Emile had optimized the USB driver for the Wadax Reference dac.

we did the compare, first three tracks with the Wadax Server, then those same three with the Extreme. i'm not going to speak on behalf of Victor. but it was a clear choice. we move on. synergy? Akasa Optical link? hard to know cause and effect exactly.

the Extreme/Wadax Ref dac is awesome in every way. the Wadax combo is better.

below is how my system looks today.

View attachment 88160
View attachment 88159
Mike congratulations on your new Wadax server. It is clear that you found that your Wadax Reference DAC had better sound with the Wadax Server linked with the Akasa cable than with the Extreme linked by USB. But did you have the opportunity to compare both servers attached to the Wadax DAC via USB?
 

Mike Lavigne

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 25, 2010
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Mike congratulations on your new Wadax server. It is clear that you found that your Wadax Reference DAC had better sound with the Wadax Server linked with the Akasa cable than with the Extreme linked by USB. But did you have the opportunity to compare both servers attached to the Wadax DAC via USB?
it was not possible due to the physical size and weight of the Extreme and the Wadax server, plus the Wadax dac sitting on top of my Tana platform. -3- 100 pound beasts, 2 very tall, impossible to casually place, and a short USB.

tonight i plan on doing my own compare of the USB to the Akasa Optical as best i can, to get a feel for that part.

then tomorrow my son will start the transfer of my files from my NAS to the Wadax server, which will take 2-3 days. then finally i will have my files on hand......"the good stuff"............ with the Wadax combo to see just what i have. these are all my long term go-to references. i bought -3- 8tb SSD's that will be configured today, so my Wadax server will have the resident 1.8tb + 24tb with one open slot for later.

in 23' 16tb SSD's are said to be introduced. then i will have to decide how i want to play that. we will see how fast i add big files. first i need to listen to the one's i have. i might want lot's of them.
 
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wil

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Jul 22, 2015
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I'm not sure how much comparing of digital Mike did with stored files. Would be interesting to know how they differ.

I am starting to understand a large part of what may make the Wadax perform the way it does is algorithm error correction software. Not so much the hardware. Not that harware is not critical . It is. But software matters.

And this is not OS software. Its filter software. Like what you do in HQ Player. But the wadax has their own filter and way they have applied it. I am told this software is very important with streaming. It may not be as important with harware that bypasses the kernel. As in a CD transport such as the Jays Audio transport.

I am told if I want to get the most out of a DAC, give it the most direct data stream that bypasses the kernel. That means I have to burn files to a CD, then use the transport as a playback device.

I did sit my 3 sources the other day. The tape definitely acts more like Mikes system. The vinyl too. Accept I can now more hear the deficiencies in my cartridge and phono pre. Then there is digital. Streaming really sucks. It just does for certain types of music. If you want suspended disbelief in piano or strings, its not happening with streaming. But move to files on the hard drive and we are a step closer. I heard it moving the right way. I may spring for a Jays transport one day. I would just prefer to find an SD player that operates the same way as a transport. For now I have to accept how digital functions and understand its limitations.

Others who don't want to go wadax may want to start trying other input sources to their DAC. Get away from the USB/server relationship. Yes, I understand that is a hard stop for most as streaming is a door to so much music. But until good filter/ereor correction software becomes more ubiquitous in affordable brands, streaming is going to be hindered. Good, even great harware, PS, vibration isolation, shielding, filtering etc only go so far. It's only 1 way to deal with digital noise. It is critical. But it seems software is needed to fix some of the damage inherent in how a server/DAC interface together.
Rex, my experience with streaming is very different from yours. I suppose that's largely attributable to the Taiko Extreme, which these days, doesn't even seem that extremely priced -- relative to some of the other solutions out there. When I started with streaming with a nice Lumin dac/streamer and Roon Nucleus I was continually, and obsessively, dissatisfied with the sound quality. Now I just enjoy the music (including a lot of classical piano).
 

nonesup

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Feb 15, 2017
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Even without an Extreme you can enjoy great quality on Qobuz.
 

MRJAZZ

Industry Expert
Jan 20, 2014
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Hi Cyrus

Havn't gone that far yet, I'm using Rose at the moment, no Roon. But will get the matching Streamer in due course. Its just gonna take some time.
Having said that, I'm pretty OK with the sonics so far, amazing.
The HI FI ROSE ( Rose 150, specifically) is a superb Net Work Streamer and is also a Roon End Point. The HiFi Rose App allows for streaming from most of the major sources ( Qoboz , Tidal, Spotify, etc. ). It’s a suberb value and offers almost unprecedented flexibility with quality sound , even if just using it’s on board Dac.
Cheers....
 
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microstrip

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Hi Micro

My system has gone through a few iterations starting with Single ended Triodes for more than a decade, and arriving at the latest iteration as follows:

Streamer for Youtube and TV: Rose RS 150
DAC: Wadax Reference
Amp: Naim Statement
Speakers: Magico M-Pro

I listen to jazz, acoustic unplugged pop albums and classical music most of the time.
I use mainly solo Pianos for auditioning gears
For large full range speakers, I use vocal recordings, for small 2 way speaker systems, I use large scale orchestral works

Thanks

Thanks. It is still too early to ask Mike about how does the Wadax Reference drive the NH468 directly in his system, but did you try using a preamplifier in your system?
 

Elliot G.

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Jul 22, 2010
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Thanks. It is still too early to ask Mike about how does the Wadax Reference drive the NH468 directly in his system, but did you try using a preamplifier in your system?
The Wadax is not a preamp nor does it have an adjustable volume control
 
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microstrip

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"Bits is bits". Sounds suspiciously like Perfect Sound Forever. I thought we had gotten over that one.

In fact, it seems "bits are bits" and it was "Perfect Sound Forever". The problem dwelled in the playback gear, not in the bits!
 
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Mike Lavigne

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 25, 2010
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In fact, it seems "bits are bits" and it was "Perfect Sound Forever". The problem dwelled in the playback gear, not in the bits!
yes, apparently so.

or maybe it's not so simple, the bits needed a feed forward error correction process........maybe 'perfect sound forever' needed a clever method to become perfect.
 
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divertiti

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Jan 12, 2021
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"Bits is bits". Sounds suspiciously like Perfect Sound Forever. I thought we had gotten over that one.

Agreed, all this talk about how software can't possibly make a difference in SQ if it's sending "bit perfect" ironically sounds exactly like people who claim music server hardware, digital cable, or network devices can't possibly make a difference to digital streaming sound quality, because "bits are bits"
 

oldvinyl

Well-Known Member
Jun 3, 2017
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Specific Northwest - Seattle area
I'm not sure how much comparing of digital Mike did with stored files. Would be interesting to know how they differ.

I am starting to understand a large part of what may make the Wadax perform the way it does is algorithm error correction software. Not so much the hardware. Not that harware is not critical . It is. But software matters.

And this is not OS software. Its filter software. Like what you do in HQ Player. But the wadax has their own filter and way they have applied it. I am told this software is very important with streaming. It may not be as important with harware that bypasses the kernel. As in a CD transport such as the Jays Audio transport.

I am told if I want to get the most out of a DAC, give it the most direct data stream that bypasses the kernel. That means I have to burn files to a CD, then use the transport as a playback device.

I did sit my 3 sources the other day. The tape definitely acts more like Mikes system. The vinyl too. Accept I can now more hear the deficiencies in my cartridge and phono pre. Then there is digital. Streaming really sucks. It just does for certain types of music. If you want suspended disbelief in piano or strings, its not happening with streaming. But move to files on the hard drive and we are a step closer. I heard it moving the right way. I may spring for a Jays transport one day. I would just prefer to find an SD player that operates the same way as a transport. For now I have to accept how digital functions and understand its limitations.

Others who don't want to go wadax may want to start trying other input sources to their DAC. Get away from the USB/server relationship. Yes, I understand that is a hard stop for most as streaming is a door to so much music. But until good filter/ereor correction software becomes more ubiquitous in affordable brands, streaming is going to be hindered. Good, even great harware, PS, vibration isolation, shielding, filtering etc only go so far. It's only 1 way to deal with digital noise. It is critical. But it seems software is needed to fix some of the damage inherent in how a server/DAC interface together.
The Wadax DAC error correction is in hardware - that is what their musIC ASIC is for. They inject known signals, measure end-end response through a TI DAC and compare the result with a known ideal result. Any difference is error. That error is then "subtracted" from the incoming digital data. The beauty of doing it in hardware is that it happens real-time. Per the Wadax web site, the mapping the error mechanisms the TI DAC under load uses Adaptive Delta Hilbert Mapping.

This is analogous to what a video processor such as Lumagen Radiance Pro does for video images.

This is described in detail in some of the written up reviews.

review and details of musicIC
 

AndrewChen

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Jul 27, 2018
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The Wadax DAC error correction is in hardware - that is what their musIC ASIC is for. They inject known signals, measure end-end response through a TI DAC and compare the result with a known ideal result. Any difference is error. That error is then "subtracted" from the incoming digital data. The beauty of doing it in hardware is that it happens real-time. Per the Wadax web site, the mapping the error mechanisms the TI DAC under load uses Adaptive Delta Hilbert Mapping.

In other words, similar to Room correction/DSP applied in the digital domain, but less flexible as it's implemented on an ASIC, and only in relation to the hardware pipeline within the Wadax, not end-to-end. Realtime is irrelevant as audio streams are very low-bit rate in the context of processing power of any modern CPU.
 

Al M.

VIP/Donor
Sep 10, 2013
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In fact, it seems "bits are bits" and it was "Perfect Sound Forever". The problem dwelled in the playback gear, not in the bits!

Absolutely, in that sense, yes.

(Even though you could argue that the Redbook "Perfect Sound Forever" format is still too uncomfortably "on the edge". But boy, the musical information, the sheer resolution, that was hidden in those silver discs and files over all those decades is staggering indeed.)
 
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oldvinyl

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In other words, similar to Room correction/DSP applied in the digital domain, but less flexible as it's implemented on an ASIC, and only in relation to the hardware pipeline within the Wadax, not end-to-end. Realtime is irrelevant as audio streams are very low-bit rate in the context of processing power of any modern CPU.
Agreed - there are always design tradeoffs. For all I know, Wadax has a processor core in their ASIC. For flexibility, an ASIC could easily be designed with registers to tune the filters. Filter taps can be added or removed by using an external FLASH that specifies a processing order. In other words, there can be some flexibility, but unless it has a large number of SRAM logic cells in the fabric, it would not be reprogrammable. The flexibility would also depend on what the designers thought of in advance when they did their design.

I would suspect that the DAC does the calibration on power up each time. That way, aging effects on the circuits are mitigated and each and every DAC has its own specific error correction. This is speculation on my part.

While software can be real time, the problem is that once the data is calculated, it has to be sync'ed to the hardware. Software designers usually concern themselves with algorithms and data structures. By creating a hardware pipeline in a logic device, the jitter can be controlled as part of the design. The timing and jitter are part of the design process and have tools to measure them and techniques to mitigate them.
 
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Mike Lavigne

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 25, 2010
12,471
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it was not possible due to the physical size and weight of the Extreme and the Wadax server, plus the Wadax dac sitting on top of my Tana platform. -3- 100 pound beasts, 2 very tall, impossible to casually place, and a short USB.

tonight i plan on doing my own compare of the USB to the Akasa Optical as best i can, to get a feel for that part.

then tomorrow my son will start the transfer of my files from my NAS to the Wadax server, which will take 2-3 days. then finally i will have my files on hand......"the good stuff"............ with the Wadax combo to see just what i have. these are all my long term go-to references. i bought -3- 8tb SSD's that will be configured today, so my Wadax server will have the resident 1.8tb + 24tb with one open slot for later.

in 23' 16tb SSD's are said to be introduced. then i will have to decide how i want to play that. we will see how fast i add big files. first i need to listen to the one's i have. i might want lot's of them.
turns out my son was able to start the file loading process this afternoon, and a chunk of files should be accessible to me tonight; i assume there is a re-mapping process first to go thru with Roon.

excited to hear them and hope i picked the right one's from the menu.:rolleyes:
 
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kswanson27

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Nov 21, 2018
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turns out my son was able to start the file loading process this afternoon, and a chuck of files should be accessible to me tonight; i assume there is a re-mapping process first to go thru with Roon.

excited to hear them and hope i picked the right one's from the menu.:rolleyes:
Really interested to hear you findings Mike. Also very curious about the USB Akasa comparison.
 

Kingrex

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Feb 3, 2019
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The Wadax DAC error correction is in hardware - that is what their musIC ASIC is for. They inject known signals, measure end-end response through a TI DAC and compare the result with a known ideal result. Any difference is error. That error is then "subtracted" from the incoming digital data. The beauty of doing it in hardware is that it happens real-time. Per the Wadax web site, the mapping the error mechanisms the TI DAC under load uses Adaptive Delta Hilbert Mapping.

This is analogous to what a video processor such as Lumagen Radiance Pro does for video images.

This is described in detail in some of the written up reviews.

review and details of musicIC
However they are applying it, It works. I am guessing some manufacturer don't want to mess with error correction as it is out of their technical expertise. They may understand chips, isolation, measuring distortion etc., but writing software is another thing. And then they may believe it is artificial. That they are changing the data stream. That it may cause fatigue not being "natural". I know over and over I have heard, keep it simple and clean. Low power. Do no harm. There may be a resistance in the manufacturing community to apply a new technique. One that is unknown.

You know what was great about going to Mikes and hearing it, I came home with a much better understanding what "live" sounds like. I honestly don't think most audiophile actually get it. That does not mean they are not enjoying musical playback. It does not mean it is right or wrong. It just means people may be striving for different outcomes, yet use the same language to describe a sonic signature.

For me, after Mikes, I have a much better understanding why my tape is right. I feel I have a more complete understanding what my vinyl is doing. And as such, where the issues lie. It also makes me more aware what to look for as I experiment with wire, panels, terminations and other infrastructure device. I feel I have a more clear understanding what "correct" sound should be. And really, copper get you there. Aluminum adds a matt finish to the sound that hides imperfections.
 

Steve Vu

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Oct 26, 2020
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However they are applying it, It works. I am guessing some manufacturer don't want to mess with error correction as it is out of their technical expertise. They may understand chips, isolation, measuring distortion etc., but writing software is another thing. And then they may believe it is artificial. That they are changing the data stream. That it may cause fatigue not being "natural". I know over and over I have heard, keep it simple and clean. Low power. Do no harm. There may be a resistance in the manufacturing community to apply a new technique. One that is unknown.

You know what was great about going to Mikes and hearing it, I came home with a much better understanding what "live" sounds like. I honestly don't think most audiophile actually get it. That does not mean they are not enjoying musical playback. It does not mean it is right or wrong. It just means people may be striving for different outcomes, yet use the same language to describe a sonic signature.

For me, after Mikes, I have a much better understanding why my tape is right. I feel I have a more complete understanding what my vinyl is doing. And as such, where the issues lie. It also makes me more aware what to look for as I experiment with wire, panels, terminations and other infrastructure device. I feel I have a more clear understanding what "correct" sound should be. And really, copper get you there. Aluminum adds a matt finish to the sound that hides imperfections.
I think if you are talking about Taiko TAS/XDMS for changing the data stream, it is more reasonable. What do you think about other chips? You think CDPs don't have error correction technical or interpolate signal? All of companies have their own technicals, please remember that.

It’s all a matter of preference so as long as you’re enjoying the whole experience and listening more then you’re on the right track.
 

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