Wadax Reference Dac and Server arrive

[Cyrus]

Thanks @bryans The SDV is exceptional. And, YES, it pairs well with Tube or SS amplification.

I learn from the combinations others choose, which is why I asked Mike the question.

 

[Al M.]

Mike, Thank You. I suppose I'm an outlier in pairing a multi- single SS component to tube amplification.

You're not the only one. I am pairing an SS DAC with tube amplification as well. And no, to Mike's point, the quite linear Octave amplification, extended at both frequency extremes, doesn't "cover up" a digital signature. It's actually pretty brutal in being unkind to flaws, which is good, because it forces you to solve problems, rather than masking them.

I have taken care of artifacts that might have been attributed to digital, also in the past by myself, but weren't digital ones after all. These were mainly acoustic issues of and within my room, and power issues.

Having said that, reclocking of the signal between CD transport and DAC was essential as well.

 

[Steve Vu]

Quick Q, Mike. Was the compare both on Roon, or Roon on Wadax and TAS on Extreme?

About the music apps, knowing the internals of how these stuffs actually works there should be no SQ difference as long as all things are kept equal. There is no actual “better.”

Music apps should only has one job: controlling what files go to the player. If the file is bit perfect, it means they have not changed the file. If one changes things about the music in Roon, Taiko TAS/XDMS, Lumin app, Aurender app or dCS Mosaic... then the file is no longer bit-perfect. It is different.

I hope the music apps always acquits themself of their task in the future. There is no real difference in absolute performance and it only comes down to the preference of the listener.

So after all, the SQ should depends on the quality of the original recordings and the quality of music server/streamer.

It’s all a matter of preference so as long as you’re enjoying the whole experience and listening more then you’re on the right track.

 

[Audiocrack]

I

Mike, Thank You. I suppose I'm an outlier in pairing a multi- single SS component to tube amplification.

I have been pairing a solid state dac (Tidal Camira lately but before that inter alia DCS) with tube amplification (Kondo preamp and poweramps) for many years. And I will keep doing this with adding the Wadax Reference dac. Bought the latter about three weeks ago and I hope to receive it at the end of this month.

 

[bonzo75]

my Extreme is going to a new happy owner. i'm buying the Wadax Reference Server.

on Friday night my friend Victor, who owns is an MSB Select 2 and is an Extreme owner, came over to assist with the compare. Victor also brought a Gigaswitch and LPS to optimize the copper Ethernet that both the Wadax and Extreme would use. both the Extreme and Wadax server were sitting on Dazia's. we used TAS for the Extreme, and Roon obviously for the Wadax. Emile had optimized the USB driver for the Wadax Reference dac.

we did the compare, first three tracks with the Wadax Server, then those same three with the Extreme. i'm not going to speak on behalf of Victor. but it was a clear choice. we move on. synergy? Akasa Optical link? hard to know cause and effect exactly.

the Extreme/Wadax Ref dac is awesome in every way. the Wadax combo is better.

below is how my system looks today.

What is Victor's system, and does he live in Seattle?

 

[kswanson27]

About the music apps, knowing the internals of how these stuffs actually works there should be no SQ difference as long as all things are kept equal. There is no actual “better.”

Music apps should only has one job: controlling what files go to the player. If the file is bit perfect, it means they have not changed the file. If one changes things about the music in Roon, Taiko TAS/XDMS, Lumin app, Aurender app or dCS Mosaic... then the file is no longer bit-perfect. It is different.

I hope the music apps always acquits themself of their task in the future. There is no real difference in absolute performance and it only comes down to the preference of the listener.

So after all, the SQ should depends on the quality of the original recordings and the quality of music server/streamer.

It’s all a matter of preference so as long as you’re enjoying the whole experience and listening more then you’re on the right track.

I don't begin to agree with that Steve. There is a difference between TAS and Roon with my Extreme, less after the latest Roon change but still evident. Maybe something to do with how busy the software is?

 

[Steve Vu]

I don't begin to agree with that Steve. There is a difference between TAS and Roon with my Extreme, less after the latest Roon change but still evident. Maybe something to do with how busy the software is?

Yes, I know there is the difference between TAS/XDMS and Roon on the Taiko Extreme. Like I said, I hope the music apps can acquit themself of their main task in the future and do not change anything about music in them. If these stuffs actually work, there should be no SQ difference as long as all things are kept equal. There is no actual “better.” Andrew of dCS also said this.

 

[jonyung]

Thanks for your clarification. Can you tell us something about your system and preferences?

Hi Micro

My system has gone through a few iterations starting with Single ended Triodes for more than a decade, and arriving at the latest iteration as follows:

Streamer for Youtube and TV: Rose RS 150
DAC: Wadax Reference
Amp: Naim Statement
Speakers: Magico M-Pro

I listen to jazz, acoustic unplugged pop albums and classical music most of the time.
I use mainly solo Pianos for auditioning gears
For large full range speakers, I use vocal recordings, for small 2 way speaker systems, I use large scale orchestral works

Thanks

 

[dminches]

Yes, I know there is the difference between TAS/XDMS and Roon on the Taiko Extreme. Like I said, I hope the music apps can acquit themself of their main task in the future and do not change anything about music in them. If these stuffs actually work, there should be no SQ difference as long as all things are kept equal. There is no actual “better.” Andrew of dCS also said this.

This is just not true. Music software does so much more than just send bits to the DAC. For example, Roon is constantly creating network traffic doing various tasks. This could all be happening while the music is playing, which causes the processor to be multi-tasking. In addition, all the music players may be checking the music sources (NAS, hard drive, streaming) to check for updates. Some also load music into RAM waiting to be played. When does this happen? There is so much going on in addition to sending data to the DAC.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

What is Victor's system, and does he live in Seattle?

Victor is member V-Squared; he was with Elliot and i the first night with the Wadax. his system is listed in his Signature here. he lives in Northern Calif but is considering moving to the Seattle, so is doing an extended stay here right now.

Wadax Reference Dac and Server arrive

great listening day yesterday from noon on. back and forth between the Wadax chain and MSB/Extreme chain once in the afternoon, plus i did play 2 Lp's for that reference. we were joined by a WBF member (MSB Ref dac owner) for dinner and then listening till 11pm, and did 4 switches between the...

www.whatsbestforum.com

he also put together this M9-MSB system for his friend, as well as has assisted Alon Wolf with the A/C power grid design for the main M9 Magico listening room.

Magico M9

Magico M9 installation with MSB electronics Wow, absolutely beautiful!

www.whatsbestforum.com

 

[bryans]

Seems like we are about to have another Roon explosion. I believe a lot of us know that some/most people on WBF who own Taiko units prefer Taiko music management SW. Nothing wrong with that.

In this post @Mike Lavigne has decided to go with a Wadax Server using Roon. This doesn't mean Taiko with TAS isn't a great unit, it just means he chose something different.

All I can say is congrats on the Wadax Reference DAC and Server. I know if I had that combo all I would be doing is listening to music!

 

[Cyrus]

Streamer for Youtube and TV: Rose RS 150

jonyung, are you using a server for Roon Core? If so which one (if not Wadax)? Thanks.

 

[Steve Vu]

This is just not true. Music software does so much more than just send bits to the DAC. For example, Roon is constantly creating network traffic doing various tasks. This could all be happening while the music is playing, which causes the processor to be multi-tasking. In addition, all the music players may be checking the music sources (NAS, hard drive, streaming) to check for updates. Some also load music into RAM waiting to be played. When does this happen? There is so much going on in addition to sending data to the DAC.

Ohh, if everything is like you said, why there isn't the difference between Mosaic and Roon about SQ? I don't know how TAS/XDMS is but I believe Andrew because he is the representation of dCS to answer this problem on the dCS forum.

 

[jonyung]

jonyung, are you using a server for Roon Core? If so which one (if not Wadax)? Thanks.

Hi Cyrus

Havn't gone that far yet, I'm using Rose at the moment, no Roon. But will get the matching Streamer in due course. Its just gonna take some time.
Having said that, I'm pretty OK with the sonics so far, amazing.

 

[dminches]

Ohh, if everything is like you said, why there isn't the difference between Mosaic and Roon about SQ? I don't know how TAS/XDMS is but I believe Andrew because he is the representation of dCS to answer this problem on the dCS forum.

In reading the dCS forums there are a lot of people who think Roon and Mosaic sound different. I don't own any dCS equipment so I can't comment from my own experience. What I do know is that I have listened to Roon, TAS and Euphony and they all sound different. In addition, Roon has made changes over time which has affected the sound. I can assure you that I am not the only one who thinks each software player sounds different (and I am not saying better or worse, just different).

 

[Steve Vu]

In reading the dCS forums there are a lot of people who think Roon and Mosaic sound different. I don't own any dCS equipment so I can't comment from my own experience. What I do know is that I have listened to Roon, TAS and Euphony and they all sound different. In addition, Roon has made changes over time which has affected the sound. I can assure you that I am not the only one who thinks each software player sounds different (and I am not saying better or worse, just different).

On the dCS forum, there are also many people who think Roon and Mosaic sound the same. Andrew had the statistics and he told clearly that: "If these stuffs actually work, there should be no SQ difference as long as all things are kept equal. There is no actual “better.”"

And yes, I agree that there are other software players sound different and I don't know they have changed something about music in them or not.

 

[Alpinist]

you don't see MSB Select in many tubed systems either. Lampi or Nagra more common.

in Asia dealers are selling big tube amps, and maybe you will see more Wadax sold into those type systems.

Hi Mike,

I own the MSB Select DAC and my Vandersteen M7-HPA monoblocks have tubes in the input stage and the first gain stage. My MSB M204 monoblocks have a lower noise floor but my Vandersteen monoblocks couldn’t sound more organic. Consequently, the MSB M204 monoblocks remain in the bullpen.

Best,
Ken

 

[Al M.]

In reading the dCS forums there are a lot of people who think Roon and Mosaic sound different. I don't own any dCS equipment so I can't comment from my own experience. What I do know is that I have listened to Roon, TAS and Euphony and they all sound different. In addition, Roon has made changes over time which has affected the sound. I can assure you that I am not the only one who thinks each software player sounds different (and I am not saying better or worse, just different).

Yes, and I have seen people complaining a few years ago that back then a Roon software update made the music sound softer, on otherwise the very same playback.

The myth "bits is bits" just doesn't hold with streaming. There are so many complicating, and apparently not easily knowable, factors about streaming and computer audio in general, it is ridiculous.

I have heard so many problems with computer audio over the years, and also direct comparisons with CD transport (including with reclocker which is even better) that it now seems obvious to me that few people , using streaming, actually get out of their digital what it is inherently capable of.

Many complaints about digital audio sound to me like complaints about the streaming itself, rather than digital per se.

Until computer audio becomes mature, I'll stick with CD transport, followed by reclocker, and do streaming over headphones on Youtube where sound quality just doesn't matter that much to me.

Sure, a SOTA assault on streaming like the Wadax server may get all out of it, but in the real world with real world prices there are just so many pitfalls in computer audio. Not that it can't be done right, but boy, how easily can it be derailed.

"Bits is bits". Sounds suspiciously like Perfect Sound Forever. I thought we had gotten over that one.

 

[dminches]

Yes, and I have seen people complaining a few years ago that back then a Roon software update made the music sound softer, on otherwise the very same playback.

The myth "bits is bits" just doesn't hold with streaming. There are so many complicating, and apparently not easily knowable, factors about streaming and computer audio in general, it is ridiculous.

I have heard so many problems with computer audio over the years, and also direct comparisons with CD transport (including with reclocker which is even better) that it now seems obvious to me that few people , using streaming, actually get out of their digital what it is inherently capable of.

Many complaints about digital audio sound to me like complaints about the streaming itself, rather than digital per se.

Until computer audio becomes mature, I'll stick with CD transport and do streaming over headphones on Youtube where sound quality just doesn't matter that much to me.

Sure, a SOTA assault on streaming like the Wadax server may get all out of it, but in the real world with real world prices there are just so many pitfalls in computer audio.

"Bits is bits". Sounds suspiciously like Perfect Sound Forever. I thought we had gotten over that one.

While I can never go back to a CD transport, I agree with your other comments.

I am not the one you need to convince on this one!

Frankly, this is one of the main reasons why I am committed to Taiko Audio. They agree with your assessment of the complications associated with computer audio.

 

[Kingrex]

I'm not sure how much comparing of digital Mike did with stored files. Would be interesting to know how they differ.

I am starting to understand a large part of what may make the Wadax perform the way it does is algorithm error correction software. Not so much the hardware. Not that harware is not critical . It is. But software matters.

And this is not OS software. Its filter software. Like what you do in HQ Player. But the wadax has their own filter and way they have applied it. I am told this software is very important with streaming. It may not be as important with harware that bypasses the kernel. As in a CD transport such as the Jays Audio transport.

I am told if I want to get the most out of a DAC, give it the most direct data stream that bypasses the kernel. That means I have to burn files to a CD, then use the transport as a playback device.

I did sit my 3 sources the other day. The tape definitely acts more like Mikes system. The vinyl too. Accept I can now more hear the deficiencies in my cartridge and phono pre. Then there is digital. Streaming really sucks. It just does for certain types of music. If you want suspended disbelief in piano or strings, its not happening with streaming. But move to files on the hard drive and we are a step closer. I heard it moving the right way. I may spring for a Jays transport one day. I would just prefer to find an SD player that operates the same way as a transport. For now I have to accept how digital functions and understand its limitations.

Others who don't want to go wadax may want to start trying other input sources to their DAC. Get away from the USB/server relationship. Yes, I understand that is a hard stop for most as streaming is a door to so much music. But until good filter/ereor correction software becomes more ubiquitous in affordable brands, streaming is going to be hindered. Good, even great harware, PS, vibration isolation, shielding, filtering etc only go so far. It's only 1 way to deal with digital noise. It is critical. But it seems software is needed to fix some of the damage inherent in how a server/DAC interface together.