Visit to Audiophile Bill to hear his horns project

[Rob181]

You need to get exposure for sales.

One way is to gamble and take a pair to Munich. There's a risk to that (I saw some guys from Mundorf literally damage Kevin's crossover cabinet) plus room and freight costs, which aren't insignificant.

You also need to get top flight equipment driving them. Some sort of collaboration with other manufacturers would seem sensible.

Otherwise mag reviews I guess. But Munich is where the big money is and if the likes of Cessaro can get 4 orders on their best horn set up in one year's show then Munich probably is worth a shot.

Nah - use WBF to begin with - start slowly - have LOTS of listening sessions - where attendees MUST post on what they have heard - build the base on quality & reputation - you can match production to orders - ramp up as the your reputation increases.

 

[Ron Resnick]

. . . There was a query ages back about the viability of getting the horn to cross to the bass even lower. At the time it wasn’t technically feasible using my construction techniques. But I have developed a new method that will enable the development of a horn that will allow me to cross around 120hz now . . .

Dear Bill,

This reads to me like you feel it is an unambiguously good idea to cross the horn to the cones at a lower frequency. Why would this be?

Isn't this subjective depending upon the preferences of the listener?

I am reminded of the interesting difference in competing designs of Gary Koh who crosses his ribbon drivers over to his woofer towers at 100Hz versus Flemming Rasmussen who crossed his ribbon drivers over to his woofer towers at 200Hz. This is a fascinating difference of opinion because both speaker systems used to use the exact same ribbon driver. It is an apple-to-apple question because each designer is making an independent decision as to the frequency at which the same ribbon driver should be crossed over to his respective woofer towers.

Each designer has rational reasons for his design preference. I believe there is no objectively correct answer.

(As a layman and merely a consumer, I think I like the idea of the cones coming in at a higher frequency so you get some dynamic driver oomph a little higher up.)

As the designer of your loudspeaker system what is your thinking and philosophy here?

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Dear Bill,

This reads to me like you feel it is an unambiguously good idea to cross the horn to the cones at a lower frequency. Why would this be?

Isn't this subjective depending upon the preferences of the listener?

I am reminded of the interesting difference in competing designs of Gary Koh who crosses his ribbon drivers over to his woofer towers at 100Hz versus Flemming Rasmussen who crossed his ribbon drivers over to his woofer towers at 200Hz. This is a fascinating difference of opinion because both speaker systems used to use the exact same ribbon driver. (As a layman and merely a consumer, I think I like the idea of the cones coming in at a higher frequency so you get some dynamic driver oomph a little higher up.)

Each designer has rational reasons for his design preference. I believe there is no objectively correct answer.

As the designer of your loudspeaker system what is your thinking and philosophy here?

Hi Ron,

All great points! Apologies if I am sounding resolutely positive that there is only upside - clearly all such decisions are matter of taste. I have tried a lower crossover point with a plastic horn as a prototype so have exposure to the potential rather than a big gamble.

My view on this conundrum is as follows.
> The driver of the upper horn very much dictates my agenda / plans. The AER driver I use has very solid output in free air down to 90-100hz. This lends itself the *option* of deciding to cross lower if I were to choose to. Clearly this is somewhat an unusual situation for 2 reasons:

1. There aren’t many compression drivers that can get anywhere near 100hz never mind 250hz
2. Horns are bandwidth limited devices meaning that their loading occurs within a defined frequency response based on the chosen mathematical form and size. One can’t normally use a horn over such a bandwidth instead more channels are required. This is very much true of compression drivers where one can’t (usually) cover from 100-20k with one horn. This is why you see the multiple horn channels you see on a big Cessaro for example. The only anomaly is the very large snail horns (WE style) that do indeed get you down to 100hz but they are augmented with a tweeter horn too.

So here we form somewhat of a compromise in going for simplicity and integration of 2 way but accepting we need to cheat a bit. The AER fortunately has extraordinary high frequency output and doesn’t apply that energy in the normal way one would expect with a whizzer cone.

Alternative 2 way options would include a mid bass horn with venting ala Altec operating to circa 500 before transferring to horn or 2 above depending on driver or preference. Obviously many other hybrid options exist too.

So we have talked about the “how” but what about the “why” - well the quality of the output in the AER + horn is so extraordinary for my taste that taking advantage of that quality of sound even lower and to the point where bass becomes non directional is a very useful goal to me. Our ability to determine directionality of bass becomes absent at around 120hz for some people and for most around 100hz. Because of this, each speaker is theoretically becoming more of a point source which I personally think advantageous based on my tests for imaging purposes. In terms of qualitative content, the tonal qualities of voice gets richer and the harmonic content of strings / brass develop a harmonic richness. You might expect that to be opposite - that all those 15 inchers would do that but I didn’t find that.

So hope this sheds light on rationale and intention.

Best wishes

 

[Zero000]

Nah - use WBF to begin with - start slowly - have LOTS of listening sessions - where attendees MUST post on what they have heard - build the base on quality & reputation - you can match production to orders - ramp up as the your reputation increases.

It's not that easy. People believe in professional reviewers and magazine propaganda. Plus the esteem of established brands with known second hand values.

You just might get the odd sale that way but not enough to pay the bills. Or Bill in this case

Time could prove me wrong and here and other forums is a way to get some attention. You never know til you try.

 

[Lagonda]

It's not that easy. People believe in professional reviewers and magazine propaganda. Plus the esteem of established brands with known second hand values.

You just might get the odd sale that way but not enough to pay the bills. Or Bill in this case

Time could prove me wrong and here and other forums is a way to get some attention. You never know til you try.

Don't forget that we already have a positive bordering on epiphany territory professional review from Marc !

 

[DaveC]

Hi Ron,

All great points! Apologies if I am sounding resolutely positive that there is only upside - clearly all such decisions are matter of taste. I have tried a lower crossover point with a plastic horn as a prototype so have exposure to the potential rather than a big gamble.

My view on this conundrum is as follows.
> The driver of the upper horn very much dictates my agenda / plans. The AER driver I use has very solid output in free air down to 90-100hz. This lends itself the *option* of deciding to cross lower if I were to choose to. Clearly this is somewhat an unusual situation for 2 reasons:

1. There aren’t many compression drivers that can get anywhere near 100hz never mind 250hz
2. Horns are bandwidth limited devices meaning that their loading occurs within a defined frequency response based on the chosen mathematical form and size. One can’t normally use a horn over such a bandwidth instead more channels are required. This is very much true of compression drivers where one can’t (usually) cover from 100-20k with one horn. This is why you see the multiple horn channels you see on a big Cessaro for example. The only anomaly is the very large snail horns (WE style) that do indeed get you down to 100hz but they are augmented with a tweeter horn too.

So here we form somewhat of a compromise in going for simplicity and integration of 2 way but accepting we need to cheat a bit. The AER fortunately has extraordinary high frequency output and doesn’t apply that energy in the normal way one would expect with a whizzer cone.

Alternative 2 way options would include a mid bass horn with venting ala Altec operating to circa 500 before transferring to horn or 2 above depending on driver or preference. Obviously many other hybrid options exist too.

So we have talked about the “how” but what about the “why” - well the quality of the output in the AER + horn is so extraordinary for my taste that taking advantage of that quality of sound even lower and to the point where bass becomes non directional is a very useful goal to me. Our ability to determine directionality of bass becomes absent at around 120hz for some people and for most around 100hz. Because of this, each speaker is theoretically becoming more of a point source which I personally think advantageous based on my tests for imaging purposes. In terms of qualitative content, the tonal qualities of voice gets richer and the harmonic content of strings / brass develop a harmonic richness. You might expect that to be opposite - that all those 15 inchers would do that but I didn’t find that.

So hope this sheds light on rationale and intention.

Best wishes

C'mon... you just want to impress the ladies with your big horn.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Thank you, Bill!

 

[Audiophile Bill]

C'mon... you just want to impress the ladies with your big horn.

I wish lol

 

[Rob181]

Dear Bill,

This reads to me like you feel it is an unambiguously good idea to cross the horn to the cones at a lower frequency. Why would this be?

Isn't this subjective depending upon the preferences of the listener?

I am reminded of the interesting difference in competing designs of Gary Koh who crosses his ribbon drivers over to his woofer towers at 100Hz versus Flemming Rasmussen who crossed his ribbon drivers over to his woofer towers at 200Hz. This is a fascinating difference of opinion because both speaker systems used to use the exact same ribbon driver. It is an apple-to-apple question because each designer is making an independent decision as to the frequency at which the same ribbon driver should be crossed over to his respective woofer towers.

Each designer has rational reasons for his design preference. I believe there is no objectively correct answer.

(As a layman and merely a consumer, I think I like the idea of the cones coming in at a higher frequency so you get some dynamic driver oomph a little higher up.)

As the designer of your loudspeaker system what is your thinking and philosophy here?

Hi Ron

A (male) singers vocal range starts at around 100Hz - if you can keep MOST vocals crossoverless - the better the vocals should sound. Hence an ideal range for a mid cone/ribbon is 100Hz to 5Khz - though vocals top out around 2KHz - "Frequencies above 2000Hz tend to leave the voice category and enter the effect category; most sounds in this area are slight variations that provide clarity in the human voice."

 

[Alrainbow]

Dear Bill,

This reads to me like you feel it is an unambiguously good idea to cross the horn to the cones at a lower frequency. Why would this be?

Isn't this subjective depending upon the preferences of the listener?

I am reminded of the interesting difference in competing designs of Gary Koh who crosses his ribbon drivers over to his woofer towers at 100Hz versus Flemming Rasmussen who crossed his ribbon drivers over to his woofer towers at 200Hz. This is a fascinating difference of opinion because both speaker systems used to use the exact same ribbon driver. It is an apple-to-apple question because each designer is making an independent decision as to the frequency at which the same ribbon driver should be crossed over to his respective woofer towers.

Each designer has rational reasons for his design preference. I believe there is no objectively correct answer.

(As a layman and merely a consumer, I think I like the idea of the cones coming in at a higher frequency so you get some dynamic driver oomph a little higher up.)

As the designer of your loudspeaker system what is your thinking and philosophy here?

The Bigger woofers in the genesis cant be crossed up as high as the smaller woofers in yours to blend with the ribbon driver ..

 

[Alrainbow]

Hi Ron,

All great points! Apologies if I am sounding resolutely positive that there is only upside - clearly all such decisions are matter of taste. I have tried a lower crossover point with a plastic horn as a prototype so have exposure to the potential rather than a big gamble.

My view on this conundrum is as follows.
> The driver of the upper horn very much dictates my agenda / plans. The AER driver I use has very solid output in free air down to 90-100hz. This lends itself the *option* of deciding to cross lower if I were to choose to. Clearly this is somewhat an unusual situation for 2 reasons:

1. There aren’t many compression drivers that can get anywhere near 100hz never mind 250hz
2. Horns are bandwidth limited devices meaning that their loading occurs within a defined frequency response based on the chosen mathematical form and size. One can’t normally use a horn over such a bandwidth instead more channels are required. This is very much true of compression drivers where one can’t (usually) cover from 100-20k with one horn. This is why you see the multiple horn channels you see on a big Cessaro for example. The only anomaly is the very large snail horns (WE style) that do indeed get you down to 100hz but they are augmented with a tweeter horn too.

So here we form somewhat of a compromise in going for simplicity and integration of 2 way but accepting we need to cheat a bit. The AER fortunately has extraordinary high frequency output and doesn’t apply that energy in the normal way one would expect with a whizzer cone.

Alternative 2 way options would include a mid bass horn with venting ala Altec operating to circa 500 before transferring to horn or 2 above depending on driver or preference. Obviously many other hybrid options exist too.

So we have talked about the “how” but what about the “why” - well the quality of the output in the AER + horn is so extraordinary for my taste that taking advantage of that quality of sound even lower and to the point where bass becomes non directional is a very useful goal to me. Our ability to determine directionality of bass becomes absent at around 120hz for some people and for most around 100hz. Because of this, each speaker is theoretically becoming more of a point source which I personally think advantageous based on my tests for imaging purposes. In terms of qualitative content, the tonal qualities of voice gets richer and the harmonic content of strings / brass develop a harmonic richness. You might expect that to be opposite - that all those 15 inchers would do that but I didn’t find that.

So hope this sheds light on rationale and intention.

Best wishes

In setting up subwoofers one manual i jad states , low Frequency Directionality may become less noticeable as you go lower but radiating output is not and will always announce itself if not balanced correctly.

Ports designed for speed vs pressure and location makes the difference. Sealed enclosures like what i have will announce themselves more than controlled port designs due to localization of pressure zones so careful matching of outputs is important.

I did spend alot of time ( got good guidance) moving bass Towers around for better phase and bass localization , raised xovers to 120Hz from 90hz for best match ...

 

[Alrainbow]

Hi Ron

A (male) singers vocal range starts at around 100Hz - if you can keep MOST vocals crossoverless - the better the vocals should sound. Hence an ideal range for a mid cone/ribbon is 100Hz to 5Khz - though vocals top out around 2KHz - "Frequencies above 2000Hz tend to leave the voice category and enter the effect category; most sounds in this area are slight variations that provide clarity in the human voice."

Driving the Ribbon that low will lead to higher distortion i found , its good only at low levels i would assume same for the horns. Ran into problems on standup bass and complex music slightly higher up cleaned it up alot ..

 

[Lagonda]

In setting up subwoofers one manual i jad states , low Frequency Directionality may become less noticeable as you go lower but radiating output is not and will always announce itself if not balanced correctly.

Ports designed for speed vs pressure and location makes the difference. Sealed enclosures like what i have will announce themselves more than controlled port designs due to localization of pressure zones so careful matching of outputs is important.

I did spend alot of time ( got good guidance) moving bass Towers around for better phase and bass localization , raised xovers to 120Hz from 90hz for best match ...

Yes people that insist that phase is not an issue in the bass frequencies should dance a couple of slow waltzes with subwoofer towers at 100HZ

 

[Ron Resnick]

The Bigger woofers in the genesis cant be crossed up as high as the smaller woofers in yours to blend with the ribbon driver ..

Interesting point. Thank you.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Driving the Ribbon that low will lead to higher distortion i found , its good only at low levels i would assume same for the horns. Ran into problems on standup bass and complex music slightly higher up cleaned it up alot ..

Hi Al,

I don’t think driving the AERs to ~100hz in an appropriate horn will lead to higher distortion but I would expect so as you start going down to 50hz. 100hz isn’t pushing the driver much at all since its fs is 39hz. Compression driver would be different kettle of fish.

 

[Don Reid]

Bill, I love your mahogany horns, and I am very envious. As I have mentioned before I use BD Design Oris 150 horns which are made of ABS plastic. I am not at all sure what plastic coloration sounds like. I have to wonder if it is a frequency response aberration that I have gotten rid of with years of programming and reprogramming and reprogramming the equalization provided by my DEQX DSP.

If you could describe what you hear as plastic coloration I would really appreciate it.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Bill, I love your mahogany horns, and I am very envious. As I have mentioned before I use BD Design Oris 150 horns which are made of ABS plastic. I am not at all sure what plastic coloration sounds like. I have to wonder if it is a frequency response aberration that I have gotten rid of with years of programming and reprogramming and reprogramming the equalization provided by my DEQX DSP.

If you could describe what you hear as plastic coloration I would really appreciate it.

Hi Don,

Thanks for the kind comment about the mahogany horns. I think you’ll really enjoy what I am making right now, which is a really large one just a fraction bigger than the Oris 150 in fact again in solid mahogany but this time finished in traditional yacht varnish.

The plastic colouration is not related to the frequency response profile of a system but the natural resonance profile of the substrate producing the music. I am of the philosophy that literally everything “sounds” from the obvious things like choice of material for a driver diaphragm to less obvious things like the screws on a head shell or the dielectric of a wire.

I am very familiar with the sound of real instruments (particularly classical) playing myself for many years but also growing up with a father who was at the Royal Academy. Anyway - this pervasive plastic colouration I speak of is imparted to everything from violins that lose their woody resonance / harmonic richness and sound more like a cheap beginner violins or trombones that sound like a P-Bone not a Conn 88H. Doesn’t really matter what instrument we speak of, they don’t sound real.

Amazingly my ear does adjust partly to the plastic after around 30 mins into a listening session. Thus I can still enjoy the other virtues of such a system.

The first time I heard the AERs in a wood horn, I felt a cognitive easing in my listening - brain switched off much quicker.

Best wishes.

 

[ArnoFenn]

Impressive wood working!!!

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Impressive wood working!!!

Thanks Arno. I am an admirer of your speakers myself. The back loaded horn in particular that you made.

 

[morricab]

Hi Don,

Thanks for the kind comment about the mahogany horns. I think you’ll really enjoy what I am making right now, which is a really large one just a fraction bigger than the Oris 150 in fact again in solid mahogany but this time finished in traditional yacht varnish.

The plastic colouration is not related to the frequency response profile of a system but the natural resonance profile of the substrate producing the music. I am of the philosophy that literally everything “sounds” from the obvious things like choice of material for a driver diaphragm to less obvious things like the screws on a head shell or the dielectric of a wire.

I am very familiar with the sound of real instruments (particularly classical) playing myself for many years but also growing up with a father who was at the Royal Academy. Anyway - this pervasive plastic colouration I speak of is imparted to everything from violins that lose their woody resonance / harmonic richness and sound more like a cheap beginner violins or trombones that sound like a P-Bone not a Conn 88H. Doesn’t really matter what instrument we speak of, they don’t sound real.

Amazingly my ear does adjust partly to the plastic after around 30 mins into a listening session. Thus I can still enjoy the other virtues of such a system.

The first time I heard the AERs in a wood horn, I felt a cognitive easing in my listening - brain switched off much quicker.

Best wishes.

I like the sound of my Odeon wooden horns very much as well...my DIY will probably end up with wooden horns in the end...