Videos of Acoustically-Coupled Audio Recordings

[DaveC]

I find it curious that those who like the videos understand their limitations and qualify their usefulness, while those who don't like the videos seem completely dismissive of them. Those advocating for the videos see them as complimentary, not exclusive, and generally have a libertarian or live and let live attitude toward their arrival on the high end scene. They accept this arrival and some even welcome it as a good thing because it increases exposure and awareness about a hobby that we all love. Just look at the comment section on some of the YouTube videos about high end gear. People appreciate learning about this stuff, and one method seems to be through watching and listening to videos.

On the other hand, those who dislike the videos seem a bit hostile toward their arrive. Why is that? These videos aren't threatening. They are not purported by their makers to be a substitute for the sound of the actual system. They are simply a snapshot that someone wants to share with someone else, much like the quick photos my kids take on their iPhones to share with friends on Instagram. We all know that those small pictures on digital devices aren't the real people. They are just reminders of what the people look like and their images are shared as a form of communication and a way for people to connect with each other.

No one is claiming that a small digital picture of someone is an accurate representation that person. But, occasionally, it can be a pretty good facsimile of what that person looks like at a particular moment. These videos are nothing more or less than that. I don't think they are such a big deal, and I fail to understand why we are getting so worked up about it and why the two points of view seem to be in such disagreement.

I feel the same way about a multitude of topics people seem to get their panties in a twist over, like the price of gear, systems adding "harmonics", and more. It seems like there's a direct correlation between this and one's financial and emotional investments.

 

[microstrip]

I find it curious that those who like the videos understand their limitations and qualify their usefulness, while those who don't like the videos seem completely dismissive of them. Those advocating for the videos see them as complimentary, not exclusive, and generally have a libertarian or live and let live attitude toward their arrival on the high end scene. They accept this arrival and some even welcome it as a good thing because it increases exposure and awareness about a hobby that we all love. Just look at the comment section on some of the YouTube videos about high end gear. People appreciate learning about this stuff, and one method seems to be through watching and listening to videos.

On the other hand, those who dislike the videos seem a bit hostile toward their arrive. Why is that? These videos aren't threatening. They are not purported by their makers to be a substitute for the sound of the actual system. They are simply a snapshot that someone wants to share with someone else, much like the quick photos my kids take on their iPhones to share with friends on Instagram. We all know that those small pictures on digital devices aren't the real people. They are just reminders of what the people look like and their images are shared as a form of communication and a way for people to connect with each other.

No one is claiming that a small digital picture of someone is an accurate representation that person. But, occasionally, it can be a pretty good facsimile of what that person looks like at a particular moment. These videos are nothing more or less than that. I don't think they are such a big deal, and I fail to understand why we are getting so worked up about it and why the two points of view seem to be in such disagreement.

Peter,

No one is hostile towards videos of high-end - they exist in the net long before this thread and no one seemed to be too worried about them. IMHO what is being discussed are the interpretations people carry on them and their use to rank sound quality. For example, being able to check a system sounds natural on video seems really bizarre ... Yes, I know that we have very different views about what natural means.

 

[DonH50]

The same debates were held back in the 80's when people used portable cassette recorders at shows, and again when solid-state field recorders were used after that. Anything that helps bring the experience home seems worthwhile to me but is not the same as "being there". I would consider them helpful, useful, but not definitive, with the big caveat that a poor recording can lead to erroneous conclusions. Just two recordings done a little differently in two different rooms means you lose the ability to make a relative comparison. But I have the same problem listening at a dealer or friend's home; their room is not my room, and I cannot truly compare speakers (in particular) unless they are in the same room and properly set up. There are endless tales of positioning one speaker system poorly or changing the volume a hair to emphasize the system the dealer wants to sell or for a friend to highlight the better sound of his (or her) new toys, often subconsciously.

IMO - Don

 

[RogerD]

Roger,

This has little to do with a store, but with the direction this hobby is going.


alex

Honestly....if I not mistaken I can draw a line between people with industry connections and users here. This is just information shared by users. If it was made by manufacturers, or critics,or sellers it's ok by and large. I just don't get the fear of people listening to systems or the music. The industry needs to lighten up.......

 

[RogerD]

Roger,

This has little to do with a store, but with the direction this hobby is going.


alex

And another thing....the industry makes it's bed and the consumer is the final arbiter. Change is constant.

 

[PeterA]

Roger,

This has little to do with a store, but with the direction this hobby is going.


alex

Alex, perhaps I don't understand in what direction you think the hobby is heading. I thought it was heading in a direction of ever increasing prices, fewer brick and mortar stores, and an aging and declining demographic or customer base. All negatives, IMO. It would seem to me that the industry might need a change in direction. In fact, people are hoping that things change. As long as the utility of these videos is understood - which it clearly seems to be by their advocates on WBF, how do you view these videos as negatively affecting the hobby? What exactly is your big concern?

 

[NorthStar]

At first I thought this was a recording of those speakers playing in that room. That can't be true!

No I don't believe so. Those are 192 Kbps rendered YouTube music recordings.
Still, they sound pretty good for low res music recordings on YouTube; plug that to your hi-end stereo jacks sound system and enjoy some great low res audio files.

We don't hear the room, so they were not recorded from this hi-fi stereo system.

This (below), is a turntable spinning an album in the room from this hi-fi stereo system:

 

[PeterA]

At first I thought this was a recording of those speakers playing in that room. That can't be true!

I won't comment on this video's sound quality for fear of the reprisals , but I did take a look at this YouTube video's comment section. How can anyone argue based on those comments, that this is a bad thing for the industry? People seem engaged, learning from this video, and discussing audio in the process. All positives. It seems to be more an add for music and hte recording than it does for the system depicted in the image, but who knows, someone may end up being curious about that too, feel inspired to learn more, and end up walking into a dealership or attending an audio show.

 

[NorthStar]

I see no problem as most of your customers buy in store or read reviews. Nothing to be scared of here. Anyway the majority consensus is that HiFi shows are not the best place to do serious listening.
When I was in business I followed my business plan,service,build a distribution system,price, and superior product.
I really doubt these videos are any kind of competition and if they are....somebody’s in trouble.

If those home made music videos can sell 300K audio gear sound systems, high power to them.
Some people shop online nowadays. Audiophiles they come in all diversified colors and characters. Tango would make an excellent online audio dealer, in my opinion.

 

[RogerD]

I think it is impossible to accurately portray any systems ability to render all it’s capable of doing by a recording period...end of story.
We all agree on that I hope.
Are they interesting? Yes
Informative? Yes
Enjoyable? Yes and no
Expression of freedom? Yes
Revealing? Depends on the listener
Ect, Ect,
And of course...other than censorship it’s all optional....a great thing IMHO

 

[RogerD]

An observation....take Twitter or Facebook for example. People post videos of real time events all the time and barring some accepted line being crossed most find them to serve some useful purpose. I don’t see any difference here.

 

[NorthStar]

Anything that supports hi-end audio is good in my book.
You want to play the best quality music recordings you love best on the best quality hi-fi stereo sound systems. Because music matters best.

If YouTube contributes to that goal, it's a good thing.

There are many ways to get to Rome.

 

[Ron Resnick]

One thing is clear though, you can judge a person's preference based on video. For example, Tang's videos or the low cost natural sound videos. Who likes them? Who does not? Which systems did you prefer based on the Munich videos alone?

While the actual in room experience might differ, and the video might not do sufficient justice, choosing video A vs video B does state the person's preference.

For example, I would like to have the attributes that some of the these videos *imply* - knowing well that in reality what they imply might not be the case, but it does show perspective of end goal

That is not clear to me at all. I just cannot agree.

One can prefer maybe the tonal balance in one video versus another video. Other than tonal balance I don’t see (ah, hear) how the video reflects someone’s preference.

If I saw in a video that someone has a vintage single-driver horn system powered by SETs, then I would deduce that he probably doesn’t care about extreme high-end or extreme low-end frequency extension, but I would have deduced the same information from a list of the equipment in the system.

PS: Mostly what I hear in your natural sound vintage system videos is the absence of high frequency extension and low frequency extension. I think vintage systems tend to sound natural because they tend to sound mid-range focused (a sound I generally like).

 

[bonzo75]

That is not clear to me at all. I just cannot agree.

One can prefer maybe the tonal balance in one video versus another video. Other than tonal balance I don’t see (ah, hear) how the video reflects someone’s preference.

If I saw in a video that someone has a vintage single-driver horn system powered by SETs, then I would deduce that he probably doesn’t care about extreme high-end or extreme low-end frequency extension, but I would have deduced the same information from a list of the equipment in the system.

PS: Mostly what I hear in your natural sound vintage system videos is the absence of high frequency extension and low frequency extension. I think vintage systems tend to sound natural because they tend to sound mid-range focused (a sound I generally like).

I agree they have less extension in some cases. That's why I said they were compromised. However the direction is clear, and as Jeff mentioned on the thread, a modernisation of that sound is required.

In many cases you can have detailed notes accompany such videos to say exactly where what is good, and what is lacking, like what you said. Nice natural midrange but requires some extension. The words will go with the video. So we agree

 

[asiufy]

Alex, perhaps I don't understand in what direction you think the hobby is heading. I thought it was heading in a direction of ever increasing prices, fewer brick and mortar stores, and an aging and declining demographic or customer base. All negatives, IMO. It would seem to me that the industry might need a change in direction. In fact, people are hoping that things change. As long as the utility of these videos is understood - which it clearly seems to be by their advocates on WBF, how do you view these videos as negatively affecting the hobby? What exactly is your big concern?

Peter,

KeithR has used the same argument before, and as I said earlier, I don't dispute none of the disturbing trends that you've mentioned, as they are indeed real.
I'm not slighting video as a medium, just the usage of it to assess absolute sound quality of a room/system. I think there's a place for professionally made videos, presenting the gear, and maybe a minute of two of (impressive, obviously) music. That might, indeed, lure new people into the hobby. But not a bunch of shaky videos of room after room, made just so online folks can comment on the sound in these rooms.
I promised myself I wouldn't comment in this thread anymore, and I truly think this is a subject best left for another occasion.

cheers,
Alex

 

[microstrip]

I agree they have less extension in some cases. That's why I said they were compromised. However the direction is clear, and as Jeff mentioned on the thread, a modernisation of that sound is required.

In many cases you can have detailed notes accompany such videos to say exactly where what is good, and what is lacking, like what you said. Nice natural midrange but requires some extension. The words will go with the video. So we agree

Yes, with plenty of suggestion and induced bias we can listen in the poor quality videos what people want us to ear in them.

For me the question is not about the enjoyment - sometimes I like these videos. The question is how using a system that does not have the technical qualities to sound "natural" we can perceive such quality in sound. If we put a 16/44.1 digital link (ADC+DAC chain) in the system being recorded the sound of iPhone recording will not perceive it - it has no resolution to notice the difference. However I am sure that most of our listeners listening in the room will immediately say that the "natural" sound is not natural anymore.

 

[Folsom]

I think you guys are underestimating the ADC in the phone. They’re probably much better than you think. The microphone is however small and limited. From the factory they probably have a rough calibration. And obviously the Samsungs are superior (especially at 60fps).

It’s not hard to hear if something sounds very smooth and easy to hear, that is rich in second harmonic distortion (all of the videos on Ked’s site for budget stuff). The distortion itself is masking, and limits resolution, so it’s not as hard to record the jist. On Ked’s list, you can tell that the stereos don’t fall flat or accentuate in distracting ways. Therefor it isn’t hard to tell they have a somewhat natural sound because they are not ear grating, they have some tone, and they aren’t noticeably inconsistent in delivery - and that they are budget because otherwise would have more resolution and still be pleasant. The purpose was served. But yes, they lack extension, which can be picked up on, too.

But there’s plenty you can’t get. Volume scaling is very limited, weight, impact, extension of bass, naturalness of bass, zero soundstage, zero 3D, etc etc. You can get the impression of a lot of stereos’ jist - but far from all.

 

[microstrip]

I think you guys are underestimating the ADC in the phone. They’re probably much better than you think. (...)

Never thought about it. Can you tell us what is resolution and sample rate of the ADC of a typical cell phone?

 

[ddk]

I just like watching the videos for some of the gear specially rare vintage speakers and sometimes the rooms are interesting too but not to judge sound quality, though one can pickup a few things in a familiar system.

david

 

[Folsom]

Never thought about it. Can you tell us what is resolution and sample rate of the ADC of a typical cell phone?

I’m sure it varies some from phone to phone but the ACC codec for MPEG4 goes to 96khz. That information is a bit challenging to find for every phone model. But the thing to note might be that YouTube I believe is capped at MP3 of 320kbp. The thing is an iPhone might have the same sample rate as Samsung, but the Samsungs are utterly superior at resolving. Do consider that they have to have some of the best shielding and layouts in the world, to stop interference that is in the same enclosure; and they are battery powered! The biggest downfall seems to be Bluetooth still interfers (turn it off when recording) - well and IME 60fps video is needed for whatever reason.

They’ve been putting in some fairly good grade DAC’s that presumably also do the ADC features. The limitation really is the physical microphones size. It would be nice to see more calibrated external mics, that could easily be used with a phone (the calibrations don’t natively import to phones).