Videos of Acoustically-Coupled Audio Recordings

[Ron Resnick]

But he needs to be willing to play ball instead of simply saying there is no value in this and he does not see how it can make sense.

I think maybe part of this debate is because, as is often the case, we are talking past each other and not truly understanding each other.

1) I agree that different video recordings of audio systems sound different (how could they not?).

2) I agree that if only one thing in a system changes, and if everything else is held constant, then a before video and an after video may reveal a difference in sound due to that change.

3) I think the disagreement is about the meaning, and about the meaningfulness, of what these sounds on videos and differences in sound mean. I do not agree that one can understand the sound of an unfamiliar system — as if you were in the room listening to it play an analog recording on vinyl — by recording digitally on a cellphone a video of the audio of that system to a generic ADC in a cellphone and then playing back digitally the video through a generic DAC on a computer. I believe that far too much low-quality digitization has occurred for one to pretend that one is experiencing a sonically authentic and technically valid facsimile of the sound of analog playback on vinyl in person.

 

[PeterA]

I think maybe part of this debate is because, as is often the case, we are talking past each other and not truly understanding each other.

1) I agree that different video recordings of audio systems sound different (how could they not?).

2) I agree that if only one thing in a system changes, and if everything else is held constant, then a before video and an after video may reveal a difference in sound due to that change.

3) I think the disagreement is about the meaning, and about the meaningfulness, of what these sounds on videos and differences in sound mean. I do not agree that one can understand the sound of an unfamiliar system — as if you were in the room listening to it play an analog recording on vinyl — by recording digitally on a cellphone a video of the audio of that system to a generic ADC in a cellphone and then playing back digitally the video through a generic DAC on a computer. I believe that far too much low-quality digitization has occurred for one to pretend that one is experiencing a sonically authentic and technically valid facsimile of the sound of analog playback on vinyl in person.

Ron, a phone video is a tool, nothing more. No one is claiming that such a video sounds the same as hearing the system live.

I agree with you that there is a disagreement about how meaningful such a video can be. I happen to think it can be very meaningful when understanding what one is hearing, the inherent limitations, and how to use that information to make judgements. One has to understand how to use tools and then to use them appropriately to his advantage. The video is limited in a sense, but it can also be very powerful.

It is like getting a protractor and other various cartridge set up tools. There are different levels of understanding how to best use these tools for optimal results. Same with a specific set up LP. It is important to choose the right one for the task. One has to know what to listen for and why, and then what adjustments to make. Sometimes this can take a long time with many trials and practice.

Add to all of that the fact that some people are simply better listeners than others. They might also have greater knowledge and experience enabling them to find more meaning from these videos and to help them understand what they are hearing about the specific system and room depicted on the video.

You are assuming that videos only have meaning when used for comparison purposes. I do not think that is the case. Sure comparisons changing one variable can be audible, but one can also learn from hearing the system video in isolation, or two videos of completely different systems and rooms. It just depends on if you are assessing a particular component or set up change, or assessing a whole system or room effect.

I discussed with two fellow members how two different power cords to my turntable motor sounded different via two videos. We then discussed one cord sounding different in two different outlets. I can listen to one video of Tang's new speakers in David's system and room and know that it is a great design. Baffle material changes were discussed via video. I can then listen to that video from David and compare it to some of Kedar's videos and form an impression of specific aspects of the different systems and how they compare.

The understanding can certainly be meaningful, as it was when I discussed my old speaker set up issues with David via video, or the recent power cords, but the videos are not comprehensive. Like most good tools, they do not tell the whole story, just a part of it.

Bonzo is right, this discussion will be the same in years to come.

By the way, what do you mean by "Acoustically -Coupled"? Simply the audio track in sync with the video track? Is this your complex way of describing a simple system video may by phone?

 

[bonzo75]

Acoustically coupled sounds like Gwyneth Paltrow is writing Ron’s posts

 

[Ron Resnick]

“Acoustically-coupled” refers to placing a recording device within its microphone range of a speaker (as opposed to a wired connection).

 

[bonzo75]

3) I think the disagreement is about the meaning, and about the meaningfulness, of what these sounds on videos and differences in sound mean. I do not agree that one can understand the sound of an unfamiliar system — as if you were in the room listening to it play an analog recording on vinyl — by recording digitally on a cellphone a video of the audio of that system to a generic ADC in a cellphone and then playing back digitally the video through a generic DAC on a computer. I believe that far too much low-quality digitization has occurred for one to pretend that one is experiencing a sonically authentic and technically valid facsimile of the sound of analog playback on vinyl in person.

You are using same theory used 4 years ago. I don’t see you recording your visits and playing back, or listening to recordings before your visit to check if impression made of system over video was right.

No one said it has to sound the same as in room. which is why I still go out to listen, otherwise would have asked only for videos. But videos are usually a very good lead.

The “low quality digitisation” is a good facsimile. You cannot know otherwise until you have tried. Also, this has been discussed for four years now, and I only see stubbornness and unwillingness in order to be loyal to one’s misplaced opinions. Recording and playing back your visits is one of the easiest things to do. There is absolutely no excuse for not doing it except “I am not going to do what those guys on the forum say “

you can also counter check with person in room, who will give you feedback on your impressions.

 

[tima]

No one said it has to sound the same as in room. which is why I still go out to listen, otherwise would have asked only for videos. But videos are usually a very good lead.

The “low quality digitisation” is a good facsimile. You cannot know otherwise until you have tried.

Yes. It's no different than saying we can never know what is on the record itself. Authenticity is not required to make comparisons. Edit: or find "meaning" -- whatever that is.

 

[PeterA]

You are using same theory used 4 years ago. I don’t see you recording your visits and playing back, or listening to recordings before your visit to check if impression made of system over video was right.

No one said it has to sound the same as in room. which is why I still go out to listen, otherwise would have asked only for videos. But videos are usually a very good lead.

The “low quality digitisation” is a good facsimile. You cannot know otherwise until you have tried. Also, this has been discussed for four years now, and I only see stubbornness and unwillingness in order to be loyal to one’s misplaced opinions. Recording and playing back your visits is one of the easiest things to do. There is absolutely no excuse for not doing it except “I am not going to do what those guys on the forum say “

you can also counter check with person in room, who will give you feedback on your impressions.

Another reason one cannot do a video when visiting is that the host of the system tells you he doesn’t want you to record it. And there can be all sorts of reasons for that.

Look at the different approach Tang and his local audio friends have compared to some members here whose attitude is “all videos suck“.

I have taken and shared the only videos of David’s Bionor system. The only videos of an early version Vitavox or the original American Sound are the ones I made and have shared here. How could one possibly argue there’s no meaning or value to those, at least as supplements to all that has been written?

Videos have value for some as a diagnostic tool, but they also simply expose viewers to components and systems that are out there that they would not otherwise be able to hear. How cool is that? Who among us will ever get a chance to hear Tang’s new speakers?

There’s also something going on with manufacturers and YouTube reviewers. They obviously see some values in recording their gear and sharing it. As a complement to the written description or even as a substitute, it’s the next best thing to being there.

Ron may not have changed his opinion about videos since he started this thread, but neither have those who use them.

 

[awsmone]

My takeaway is that anybody who enjoys listening to videos and swapping videos should, for serious comparisons, be playing these videos through their big audio systems.

Couldn’t agree more Ron

 

[awsmone]

Another reason one cannot do a video when visiting is that the host of the system tells you he doesn’t want you to record it. And there can be all sorts of reasons for that.

Look at the different approach Tang and his local audio friends have compared to some members here whose attitude is “all videos suck“.

I have taken and shared the only videos of David’s Bionor system. The only videos of an early version Vitavox or the original American Sound are the ones I made and have shared here. How could one possibly argue there’s no meaning or value to those, at least as supplements to all that has been written?

Videos have value for some as a diagnostic tool, but they also simply expose viewers to components and systems that are out there that they would not otherwise be able to hear. How cool is that? Who among us will ever get a chance to hear Tang’s new speakers?

There’s also something going on with manufacturers and YouTube reviewers. They obviously see some values in recording their gear and sharing it. As a complement to the written description or even as a substitute, it’s the next best thing to being there.

Ron may not have changed his opinion about videos since he started this thread, but neither have those who use them.

I agree PeterA it takes some guts to vid your room, and equipment and sound

if Ron gets nothing out of it, and others do, I am unclear why he even participates in this thread , is he just “having a go” as we say in Australia, because Ked, et al, enjoy it and do it a lot ?…. it seems a nihilistic discussion, he doesn’t get it, wants to argue ( making at times disparaging comments for which he apologised) and still doesn’t get it , seems pointless for him to engage, I appreciate his misgivings, about the efficacy of the iPhone approach, but if others get something out of it , why be concerned . At least I agree with him that playback needs to be a quality system

 

[awsmone]

a comparison of three hiênd DACs

 

[Ron Resnick]

they also simply expose viewers to components and systems that are out there that they would not otherwise be able to hear. How cool is that? Who among us will ever get a chance to hear Tang’s new speakers?

I agree that videos expose viewers visually to components and systems they would not be able to hear.

Almost none of us will ever get a chance to hear Tang’s new speakers. The point of disagreement is that you think people will get a “chance to hear Tang‘s new speakers” via a video, and I don’t believe that listening to a video of the audio of Tang’s system is tantamount to getting a “chance to hear Tang’s new speakers.”

 

[Ron Resnick]

Ron may not have changed his opinion about videos since he started this thread

I have changed my opinion about one important element: Kedar’s annoying prodding prompted me to learn that comparing the audio from videos on the big stereo can reveal differences I simply could not discern on the iPhone or on the computer.

 

[bonzo75]

If anyone thinks I am annoying raise your hand

 

[bonzo75]

I have changed my opinion about one important element: Kedar’s annoying prodding prompted me to learn that comparing the audio from videos on the big stereo can reveal differences I simply could not discern on the iPhone or on the computer.

why don’t you record Jim, Jeff, and Keith experiments and see if you pick those changes on video? Same once you start trying amps on your Gryphon speakers.

 

[PeterA]

why don’t you record Jim, Jeff, and Keith experiments and see if you pick those changes on video? Same once you start trying amps on your Gryphon speakers.

Kedar, I was hoping you had made videos of those systems during your recent visit there, plus Mike's system.

The difference between you and me is that you are trying to convince Ron to appreciate videos. I fully accept, and do not really care, that he does not. I only re-entered this thread to give a different perspective from Ron's, my perspective based on my experience, and to respond to his post about my absurd comments related to that fascinating system in Russia.

It is like Ron's disinterest in learning to set up a cartridge. It is fine. It is his business and he can hire others to do it for him. It is a different approach to enjoying vinyl, and he chooses to focus on other aspects of the hobby. You and I are more hands-on. I want to learn by doing and am fascinated by grinding out more performance out of my vinyl front end through improving set up. You seem to want to learn by visiting others and exposing yourself to systems that you can not visit and by doing rigorous comparisons. You have become a good listener in the process. Ron does some of that too, just not from videos.

 

[bonzo75]

Hi Peter, it is fine if Ron does not want to learn to set up cartridges. He does not go on forums to say setting up a cartridge is a wrong thing to do and meaningless. He accepts it is his shortcoming he has tried, he is not good at it, so he will hire someone.

With videos, he argues on a higher ground against those that use videos, and is not willing to learn even though very easy to do. So these are two quite different things. If people find it difficult to travel, listen, compare, I understand. But if you are already in front of someone who is letting you record his system, why not for yourself? It is fine if Ron doesn’t share it, it is for himself, it just bothers me he won’t lift his arm to record and check our statements, but will to type the same posts for 4 years counting

 

[PeterA]

Hi Peter, it is fine if Ron does not want to learn to set up cartridges. He does not go on forums to say setting up a cartridge is a wrong thing to do and meaningless. He accepts it is his shortcoming he has tried, he is not good at it, so he will hire someone.

With videos, he argues on a higher ground against those that use videos, and is not willing to learn even though very easy to do. So these are two quite different things. If people find it difficult to travel, listen, compare, I understand. But if you are already in front of someone who is letting you record his system, why not for yourself? It is fine if Ron doesn’t share it, it is for himself, it just bothers me he won’t lift his arm to record and check our statements, but will to type the same posts for 4 years counting

You are right. The analogy is not great. I was viewing both alignment tools and videos are tools for the hobbyist to use to increase understanding and improve performance. You are viewing videos for exposure, not as a set up tool that can be discussed remotely, as I often use them. Videos can and do have multiple uses.

 

[bonzo75]

You are right. The analogy is not great. I was viewing both alignment tools and videos are tools for the hobbyist to use to increase understanding and improve performance. You are viewing videos for exposure, not as a set up tool that can be discussed remotely, as I often use them. Videos can and do have multiple uses.

video will be a great set up tool. David can show Ron how to set up remotely and Ron can record a video to show change in sound.

 

[PeterA]

video will be a great set up tool. David can show Ron how to set up remotely and Ron can record a video to show change in sound.

Ked, you would be surprised at the progress I made via telephone discussions reviewing videos with David about my old system, particularly the speaker orientation and positioning, plus room treatments, and with slight alignment issues with my cartridge in the new system. I already mentioned the power cord and outlet revelation. I could have simply told David about those, but he was shocked at the differences he heard from the video. Tim heard it too.

 

[morricab]

I have changed my opinion about one important element: Kedar’s annoying prodding prompted me to learn that comparing the audio from videos on the big stereo can reveal differences I simply could not discern on the iPhone or on the computer.

Why would you listen to them through an iPhone?? The microphone on an iPhone is not the worst but to listen? Use good headphones or a good computer speakers at least.