Videos of Acoustically-Coupled Audio Recordings

[PeterA]

I noticed today what I consider to be a new high in absurdity regarding cellphone videos of audio systems:

Thinking that one can compare accurately or meaningfully in a completely unfamiliar system in a completely unfamiliar room the sound of analog tape playback of an original analog recording to the sound of analog vinyl playback of an original analog recording by recording digitally a video of both of them to a generic ADC in a cellphone and then playing back digitally the video through a generic DAC on a computer.

Ron, why not post a link to that absurd comment? I think I might’ve been the one who made it after I watched a very interesting and long video from @bonzo75 of a Russian system that had both reel to reel and vinyl playback. The music was great and the system sounded quite good but there were differences that are really quite easy to hear. Others expressed they’re opinion about my comments.

Here’s a link to my comment and post # 283: https://www.whatsbestforum.com/thre...-olympian-vs-avantgarde-trio-vs.35006/page-15

Perhaps you can explain why you think my comments reach a new height of absurdity. If you’re not referring to my comments about that video, I apologize and request a reference or link to what you are talking about.

Edit: How do you know this is a cell phone video?

 

[Ron Resnick]

I appreciate that in such a video you hear different sounds. I appreciate that different sources and different recordings played back and recorded on the video make different sounds.

But in a completely unfamiliar system in a completely unfamiliar room, and after sounds from sources and electronics and loudspeakers have gone through multiple generic analog to digital to analog conversions, how can you attribute to a particular component or a particular source or a particular recording anything meaningful?

If I misunderstood your post in that other thread, and you simply meant that different things in the video sound different, then I wrongly attributed to your post meaningfulness you did not intend. For that I apologize.

 

[PeterA]

I appreciate that in such a video you hear different sounds. I appreciate that different sources and different recordings played back and recorded on the video make different sounds.

But in a completely unfamiliar system in a completely unfamiliar room, and after sounds from sources and electronics and loudspeakers have gone through multiple generic analog to digital to analog conversions, how can you attribute to a particular component or a particular source or a particular recording anything meaningful?

If I misunderstood your post in that other thread, and you simply meant that different things in the video sound different, then I wrongly attributed to your post meaningfulness you did not intend. For that I apologize.

Ron, are you saying that the mere act of commenting on the video is absurd or that my comments reach a new height in absurdity?

I rarely think that comments about videos and what one hears from them carry a lot of meaning for others, although I did discuss my old system set up issues through video confirmation with ddk and learned a lot. in that case, video analysis was extremely useful and productive and the videos served as tools for greater understanding.

I’m simply commenting here on what I hear from a pretty good video of a fascinating system. I understand that you started this thread to denigrate videos.

 

[morricab]

I appreciate that in such a video you hear different sounds. I appreciate that different sources and different recordings played back and recorded on the video make different sounds.

But in a completely unfamiliar system in a completely unfamiliar room, and after sounds from sources and electronics and loudspeakers have gone through multiple generic analog to digital to analog conversions, how can you attribute to a particular component or a particular source or a particular recording anything meaningful?

If I misunderstood your post in that other thread, and you simply meant that different things in the video sound different, then I wrongly attributed to your post meaningfulness you did not intend. For that I apologize.

If the only thing that changed between videos is the source and the sound is quite different between videos then why can’t you make a judgement between the two sources?? The absolute sound is not that important but the difference is. This also assumes the recording conditions are the same of course. Knowing the system and room isn’t necessary IMO.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Ron, are you saying that the mere act of commenting on the video is absurd or that my comments reach a new height in absurdity?

Neither, Peter. Your comments that things in the video sound different are legitimate.

I mistakenly thought that your comments implied that you could compare accurately or meaningfully in a completely unfamiliar system in a completely unfamiliar room the sound of analog tape playback of an original analog recording to the sound of analog vinyl playback of an original analog recording.

 

[PeterA]

Neither, Peter. Your comments that things in the video sound different are legitimate.

I mistakenly thought that your comments implied that you could compare accurately or meaningfully in a completely unfamiliar system in a completely unfamiliar room the sound of analog tape playback of an original analog recording to the sound of analog vinyl playback of an original analog recording.

I don’t know what you mean by accurately Ron. I think I wrote that I hear differences and implied a preference. Most don’t care or think the comment has any real meaning.

But I continue to contend that videos can be used as a tool for very meaningful advancement in system set up when listening for results with others who cannot hear the actual system in the room. Same with cartridge set up. This is my experience and that of a few others but I have no illusion that others will find value in the process.

Many will comment as you did in the original post, that you don’t understand it. That is fine it’s not my intention to convince you otherwise.

 

[awsmone]

I don’t know what you mean by accurately Ron. I think I wrote that I hear differences and implied a preference. Most don’t care or think the comment has any real meaning.

But I continue to contend that videos can be used as a tool for very meaningful advancement in system set up when listening for results with others who cannot hear the actual system in the room. Same with cartridge set up. This is my experience and that of a few others but I have no illusion that others will find value in the process.

Many will comment as you did in the original post, that you don’t understand it. That is fine it’s not my intention to convince you otherwise.

I think Peter A has created a standard with his vids which if followed over time show differences, are these accurate to the actual live presentation I don’t know

I listened to my own recent vids and actually find them with considerable qualitative similarities to my room
i have to confess though I am using a dedicated microphone adc and play back through proper audio equipment attached to my smartTV in my bedroom , so not quite iPhone quality , but I believe if you do things the way Peter does it , and I have listened to all his vids pretty much you can hear changes, PeterA uses this process, it has some validity to him, enough said

I get sent a lot of Ked’s vids, if it sounds good, it sounds good, sometimes the quality is quite good sound wise , and he changes something between vids and you hear a change often he blinds me to the changes and I have to give honest responses

once again my playback is dedicated of these vids , I have been surprised how often the differences are quite audible, is it the same as being there, I doubt it

 

[Ron Resnick]

I think Peter A has created a standard with his vids which if followed over time show differences,

if you do things the way Peter does it , and I have listened to all his vids pretty much you can hear changes, PeterA uses this process, it has some validity to him, enough said

I get sent a lot of Ked’s vids, . . . and he changes something between vids and you hear a change often he blinds me to the changes and I have to give honest responses

I have been surprised how often the differences are quite audible

Thank you for interceding here.

I understand, and I have written, that if only one thing in a system changes, and if everything else is held constant, then a before video and an after video may reveal a difference in sound due to that change.

Peter’s own videos adhere to this honest and rational protocol.

 

[Ron Resnick]

are these accurate to the actual live presentation I don’t know

is it the same as being there, I doubt it

Maybe I truly just don’t understand the purpose of this whole video thing. If the purpose simply is to hear sound made by audio systems which are digitally recorded on videos, and there is no intention or expectation for that sound to reflect accurately what one would hear from the components in that system if one were there live in person, then so be it.

I now understand that I attributed to Peter’s post meaning which Peter did not intend to convey or suggest. I thought Peter meant that from hearing the video he now understands the sound reproduced by the vinyl playback system versus the sound reproduced by the tape playback system, as if he were there in person listening live to those playbacks.

 

[Tango]

But I continue to contend that videos can be used as a tool for very meaningful advancement in system set up when listening for results with others who cannot hear the actual system in the room. Same with cartridge set up. This is my experience and that of a few others but I have no illusion that others will find value in the process.

Many will comment as you did in the original post, that you don’t understand it. That is fine it’s not my intention to convince you otherwise.

That's the bottomline Peter. If people dont hear we are not there to tell them to hear or to convince them. In fact telling what to hear is "leading" people who dont hear to hear. I believe we learn to hear by ourself and also by examining experienced listeners. But don't let them teach you how to hear or lead people to hear. Realization must take place by oneself.

I also believe you can identify digital, vinyl or tape from videos if you have listened to them extensive enough across so many systems. You can identify which is horizon which is wadax from video too. You just have to listen a lot examine a lot you will hear character even from video.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I also believe you can identify digital, vinyl or tape from videos if you have listened to them extensive enough across so many systems.

Thank you, Tang, for weighing in on this topic.

By “vinyl or tape” do you mean analog vinyl recordings and analog tape recordings? Assuming this is the case, how can you “identify digital, [analog] vinyl or [analog] tape from videos” if the videos, of necessity, make everything digital?

Are you saying that even though everything through the videos has become digital, there is nonetheless enough of a residual sonic signature of analog vinyl playback and analog tape playback to distinguish them from digital playback?

 

[Tango]

Thank you, Tang, for weighing in on this topic.

By “vinyl or tape” do you mean analog vinyl recordings and analog tape recordings? Assuming this is the case, how can you “identify digital, [analog] vinyl or [analog] tape from videos” if the videos, of necessity, make everything digital?

Are you saying that even though everything through the videos has become digital, there is nonetheless enough of a residual sonic signature of analog vinyl playback and analog tape playback to distinguish them from digital playback?

As I said you can identify them by different in character of each format. Yes the character is unique enough to shine through video. For example the tone, the way sound is organized and natural palpability of digital is never the same as analog. The high, the accuracy of tone, the stillness, the absolute resolution of vinyl is never the same as tape given both software are in excellent quality. There are other character that one needs to realize himself. They can shine through videos. I listen a lot of videos because it is popular for audiophiles here in Thailand. I am also fortunate to be surrounded by fellow audiophiles who have top equipments of all format that I can hear in real to gain exposure. These past two three months I have been enjoying friends systems and not mine lol. 95% digital.

 

[awsmone]

I appreciate Ron might have a purist mentality , but there is the practical reality I at least have in an audiophile barren environment of listening to exotic or rare equipment

Ked, PeterA, and T?ng have shared a wealth of experiences with me, yes , on a reduced bandwidth but, I feel I have learned and gained experience from their vid input

is it perfect No

but I think it adds to my audiophile education

 

[bonzo75]

I appreciate Ron might have a purist mentality

No it is not relating to what pro video brigade is saying. This has been going on for 4 years, each time we get a misunderstanding just like when the thread started. They should put in some effort to see what the other side is saying by recording the videos of the systems they visit, playing it back, sharing it, and checking feedback. Just same arguments over and over without any evidenced effort from their part get boring. You can revisit this thread in 2025 and 2030.

Separately, when I was at Ron's in September, listening to videos over his computer's inbuilt speaker, which is what he tried to see our viewpoint, was not good enough to show what the video was doing. I listened to familiar videos on that and it was not revealing anything. I told him he would be better off streaming to something like Sonos (he has great in ceiling speakers) or a soundbar.

I did text Ron some videos which he played back over his Maggies and he heard differences. I was willing to send him more to showcase difference in videos and how they compare to in room notes. But he needs to be willing to play ball instead of simply saying there is no value in this and he does not see how it can make sense.

 

[awsmone]

No it is not relating to what pro video brigade is saying. This has been going on for 4 years, each time we get a misunderstanding just like when the thread started. They should put in some effort to see what the other side is saying by recording the videos of the systems they visit, playing it back, sharing it, and checking feedback. Just same arguments over and over without any evidenced effort from their part get boring. You can revisit this thread in 2025 and 2030.

Separately, when I was at Ron's in September, listening to videos over his computer's inbuilt speaker, which is what he tried to see out viewpoint, was not good enough to show what the video was doing. I listened to familiar videos on that and it was not revealing anything. I told him he would be better off streaming to something like Sonos (he has great in ceiling speakers) or a soundbar.

I did text Ron some videos which he played back over his Maggies and he heard differences. I was willing to send him more to showcase difference in videos and how they compare to in room notes. But he needs to be willing to play ball instead of simply saying there is no value in this and he does not see how it can make sense.

As I have already alluded to I do not listen on ‘generic” equipment ( not sure Ron, what that is?)

I have two rigs, a headphone rig with lh labs dac, and three driver headphones and a separates rig with a chord Dave, a digital buffer, a clock and bakoon amps connected to fat lady speakers, with rel subs in my bedroom system

 

[bonzo75]

These past two three months I have been enjoying friends systems and not mine lol. 95% digital.

Audiophile cat captured on video in Thailand doing tour to mark territory.

❤️ | By TREND TOUR ThailandFacebook

❤️

www.facebook.com

 

[tima]

They should put in some effort to see what the other side is saying by recording the videos of the systems they visit, playing it back, sharing it, and checking feedback.

Just as you make a case for an iphone quasi-standard for recording, I suspect there is a case for minimum playback conditions. Speakers built-in to a desktop or a laptop or a monitor do not cut it -- not for assessing videos or making claims about the value of videos, much less making claims about the absurdity of other's judgement of them. Some may even think they can assess stereo in mono listening over a phone. A decent soundcard and separate speakers are a starting point. If you can play youtube over the TV or capture the audio feed as a file, Sonos could work.

 

[bonzo75]

Just as you make a case for an iphone quasi-standard for recording, I suspect there is a case for minimum playback conditions. Speakers built-in to a desktop or a laptop or a monitor do not cut it -- not for assessing videos or making claims about the value of videos, much less making claims about the absurdity of other's judgement of them. Some may even think they can assess stereo in mono listening over a phone. A decent soundcard and separate speakers are a starting point. If you can play youtube over the TV or capture the audio feed as a file, Sonos could work.

The reason for an iphone is to have a minimum level that is common. If everyone upgraded their recording equipment to a common denominator, it is fine, but otherwise improvement in recording equipment can make a system sound better rather than the system itself being better.

Playback is different. The listener has to have sufficient resolution to hear the system/component differences, and each time he should do it on a common platform.

So what the listener hears back on should be common for him. He should not change with every system - once a phone, once a laptop, once higher res speakers etc is not the way. Similarly, recording res should not change with every recording. Keep it common, but playback needs sufficient resolution. I couldn't make out what I had recorded over Ron's computer speakers, but I can over other playback devices I have used.

the simple test is - when my friends and I exchange video clips, we usually get the in room spot on. I can't when I play it back over Ron's PC speaker or over one of my three laptops (two are better at it than the third, but not ideal). I can get a lot right on my iphone 11 compared to iphone 8, and I have always been streaming to a naim boombox since 2019, so I have kept that as a constant, and it has been pretty consistent in giving me right impressions of stuff I have recorded or what my friend's have.

 

[tima]

The reason for an iphone is to have a minimum level that is common. If everyone upgraded their recording equipment to a common denominator, it is fine, but otherwise improvement in recording equipment can make a system sound better rather than the system itself being better.

Playback is different. The listener has to have sufficient resolution to hear the system/component differences, and each time he should do it on a common platform.

So what the listener hears back on should be common for him. He should not change with every system - once a phone, once a laptop, once higher res speakers etc is not the way. Similarly, recording res should not change with every recording. Keep it common, but playback needs sufficient resolution. I couldn't make out what I had recorded over Ron's computer speakers, but I can over other playback devices I have used.

the simple test is - when my friends and I exchange video clips, we usually get the in room spot on. I can't when I play it back over Ron's PC speaker or over one of my three laptops (two are better at it than the third, but not ideal). I can get a lot right on my iphone 11 compared to iphone 8, and I jave always been streaming to a naim boombox since 2019, so I have kept that as a constant, and it has been pretty consistent in giving me right impressions of stuff I have recorded or what my friend's have.

Sure. I was not talking so much about consistency. I take for granted that the listener is not bopping around on different listening devices. I'm talking about a level of overall minimum of playback quality and resolution which is unlikely found on built-in computer speakers. Goodness knows how many different types of personal computing devices I've used during my career, including built from scratch. Unless you have something specialized for audio, motherboard DACs and computer speakers tend to be low cost throw-ins and very limited.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Separately, when I was at Ron's in September, listening to videos over his computer's inbuilt speaker, which is what he tried to see our viewpoint, was not good enough to show what the video was doing. I listened to familiar videos on that and it was not revealing anything. I told him he would be better off streaming to something like Sonos (he has great in ceiling speakers) or a soundbar.

I did text Ron some videos which he played back over his Maggies and he heard differences.

Kedar’s recitation of his visit with me and my subsequent experiment is accurate. Kedar sent me two piano video clips, A and B.

Kedar reported to me that he heard a very significant difference on the piano between these two videos. On the iPhone I heard little difference, and, if anything, I actually preferred the slightly richer tonal balance on the A recording that Kedar disliked. On the iMac desktop computer I again heard little difference, and, if anything, I actually preferred the slightly richer tonal balance on the A recording that Kedar disliked.

When I played both videos off of my iPhone, and I used an Apple lightning to 1/8” stereo adapter female, and then a 1/8” stereo male to stereo RCA male cable to connect the iPhone as a source to my line stage pre-amplifier, I listened again to both videos on the temporary Magnepan big system.

Now I could hear clearly the differences Kedar was describing. And Kedar was correct. Despite still preferring the slightly richer tonal balance of the A is recording Kedar disliked, I could now hear easily and clearly the muffled or distorted sound of the A recording. I was utterly unable to discern this sound without running the video through the big stereo. The B recording Kedar liked now sounded clean and pure and natural in comparison to the A recording Kedar disliked.

My takeaway is that anybody who enjoys listening to videos and swapping videos should, for serious comparisons, be playing these videos through their big audio systems.