Patrick should be commended for his approach in being able to audition so many DACs and sharing his experience with us.
Various DAC Audition Impressions
- Thread starter pk_LA
- Start date
Hi Markus,
All MSB modules including Pro USB are connected to the Digital Director inputs exactly the same way they are connected to the Select II DAC inputs.
From the output of the Digital Director, one Pro ISL module and one new DAC Control module to the Select II DAC inputs.
Ken
I agree wholeheartedly. And Ron as well for sharing. I think vendors feeling threatened by the fact that their dac wasn’t chosen is silly and off-putting, especially accompanied by accusations on advertising biases… These are ALL relatively excellent dacs, after all.
I think pk_LA can compare DACs however he wants. He starts an audition process to buy a new DAC and decides (thanks for that) to post his impressions of it on WBF. It's his money and he can do the tests as he prefers, it's not a strict comparison to publish in a magazine, it's just his listening impressions. Also he was very honest explaining which servers were used and connecting cables between Server and DAC were used. It would have been different if he had raised it as a comparison between DAC, then the criticism would have been justified, but it is not the case.
Note: Just in case Robert Do is an Aries Cerat salesman, if he brought his DAC to an audition with a $5 cable, I think Stavros Danos should have a talk with him.
Thanks for this update, Kawero. I understood from Javier that your are the first person to experience this update. Your reaction implies that the update is (very) significant. Hope to hear it myself soon.
Music is more fluent. This is the big advantage as the Wadax Ref streamer and Ref Dac is a system. Not two components as in other DAC/streamer solutions.
It's all good the OP made a comparison and express this thought online we have to appreciate the effort made here Thank you for this,
Yet i think the whole thing is kinda flawed anyway, I don't represent any of the DACS on his list. It's a flawed comparison so no one should really take it seriously enough to buy a DAC solely on such reviews and as the old advice goes one should listen to the DACS in their own systems. Such comparisons also are highly biased based on the budget too. Our mind can perceive pricing according to performance as a fav to one over the other.
1: For one thing, the same streamer was not used nor were the cables, (Streamers have a big impact on SQ)
2: Audio memory can be foggy at times and dam right deceiving at others. The op Is did not have all the DACS in-house at the same time.
3: DACS of entry levels were compared to Top of the line Ref DACS from other manufacturers this alone is already unfair!
The side-by-side comparison is one of the best ways to do this by switching very fast between DACS using the same server.
Yet i think the whole thing is kinda flawed anyway, I don't represent any of the DACS on his list. It's a flawed comparison so no one should really take it seriously enough to buy a DAC solely on such reviews and as the old advice goes one should listen to the DACS in their own systems. Such comparisons also are highly biased based on the budget too. Our mind can perceive pricing according to performance as a fav to one over the other.
1: For one thing, the same streamer was not used nor were the cables, (Streamers have a big impact on SQ)
2: Audio memory can be foggy at times and dam right deceiving at others. The op Is did not have all the DACS in-house at the same time.
3: DACS of entry levels were compared to Top of the line Ref DACS from other manufacturers this alone is already unfair!
The side-by-side comparison is one of the best ways to do this by switching very fast between DACS using the same server.
+1
As I wrote in the conclusion in Post #26: “I think the differences between and among most of these DACs is relatively minor.”
I had the Wadax Ref Dac also with a full equipped Taiko Extreme. It is also awesome and better than many of the doubters think. Wadax with Wadax is just another league. I give you an example from the automotive industry where my main job is as an executive at a tier1 supplier. Nobody from the end customers would buy an engine and a chassis and combine them (which was usus in the 1920 to 30s). Things are more complex. Interfaces matter. Software and operation strategy matter. Just think about that a system approach has some advantage
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I can test the Wadax Streamer vs my other streamers with several DACs. USB or SP/DIF- AES-BNC output. It is better than my other streamers
...so your thesis here is that the Wadax company is so powerful they can control how you feel? Why "must" anyone buy anything from them...or any company?
Companies design and build products, which often have options or "improvement" upgrades. Bigger. Faster. More precise. On and on.
If potential customers feel pressured to buy the bigger, faster engine, I would say that's more a reflection of the potential buyer's psyche than any manipulation by the manufacturer.
So, striving for better is elitist? Well, I suppose it is. If Wadax gave everyone a dac and server for free, would that relieve some of the "pressure" you feel about their products?
dCS Vivaldi DAC- $35,999
Lampizator Horizon - $50,000
Nagra HD X - $65,000
Infigo Method 4 - $35,000
Wadax Reference - $221,495
Aries Cerat Kassandra Ref - $23,375
SW1X DAC III Balanced $16,550
MSB Select II - $84,500
(Please let me know if I got any of these prices wrong.)
I am pleased that Patrick chose to include SW1X in his test of uber high end DACs and appreciate the yeoman-ly effort involved. To be correct, the SW1X DAC provided was a DAC III Balanced with upgraded mains transformers, not a DAC I as listed. At $16,500 it was the least expensive of any of the DACs tested. It is entirely appropriate for the DAC III Balanced to be tested against any and all DACs, which, I think it safe to say, given the price and pedigree of the DACs included in the test, this sampling represented.
SW1X DACs go to 24/96 and do not play DSD. The preferred input is SPDIF, though a USB to SPDIF conversion board with tube master clock is an additional option. Source, cabling and isolation will be absolutely critical in determining the outcome. In this case, the use of an inferior cable and the passing of the signal through other components necessarily affected what Patrick and Ron heard and reported on. Given that the setup for the DAC III Balanced differed radically from the others, no reliable conclusions can be drawn about it from the test.
In fairness to all of the DACs tested, consitency of source and cabling would have yielded more accurate results, however I fully appreciate that Patrick did the best he could with what he had available. I should also mention that the DAC III Balanced provided was of a previous generation. The latest version is significantly more resolving and transparent due to refinements of the circuit.
A customer of mine in San Francisco purchased an SW1X DAC V Special ($95,000, with pure silver wound output transformers) that uses number 45 triode signal output tubes. It is the most glorious piece of equipment I have had the pleasure of interacting with on an intimate basis. The customer originally owned a dCS stack consisting of Vivaldi (not Apex) DAC, Clock and Upsampler. We provided an SW1X DAC II Standard for him to test (currently $3225). He was able to output both SPDIF and AES/EBU simultaneously from his Aurender 20 SE and could switch between the two outputs in real time. His conclusion? "The dCS was slightly warmer and slightly louder, but otherwise they are the same."
I have invited Patrick to visit when he is in the S.F. Bay Area to get another perspective on SW1X, and I invite all forum members to come hear the DAC III Balanced here in a more optimized setting with our Lotus Group Granada Loudspeaker and to hear the DAC V Special with Wilson Alexx Vs. Please get in touch. Thanks.
Lampizator Horizon - $50,000
Nagra HD X - $65,000
Infigo Method 4 - $35,000
Wadax Reference - $221,495
Aries Cerat Kassandra Ref - $23,375
SW1X DAC III Balanced $16,550
MSB Select II - $84,500
(Please let me know if I got any of these prices wrong.)
I am pleased that Patrick chose to include SW1X in his test of uber high end DACs and appreciate the yeoman-ly effort involved. To be correct, the SW1X DAC provided was a DAC III Balanced with upgraded mains transformers, not a DAC I as listed. At $16,500 it was the least expensive of any of the DACs tested. It is entirely appropriate for the DAC III Balanced to be tested against any and all DACs, which, I think it safe to say, given the price and pedigree of the DACs included in the test, this sampling represented.
SW1X DACs go to 24/96 and do not play DSD. The preferred input is SPDIF, though a USB to SPDIF conversion board with tube master clock is an additional option. Source, cabling and isolation will be absolutely critical in determining the outcome. In this case, the use of an inferior cable and the passing of the signal through other components necessarily affected what Patrick and Ron heard and reported on. Given that the setup for the DAC III Balanced differed radically from the others, no reliable conclusions can be drawn about it from the test.
In fairness to all of the DACs tested, consitency of source and cabling would have yielded more accurate results, however I fully appreciate that Patrick did the best he could with what he had available. I should also mention that the DAC III Balanced provided was of a previous generation. The latest version is significantly more resolving and transparent due to refinements of the circuit.
A customer of mine in San Francisco purchased an SW1X DAC V Special ($95,000, with pure silver wound output transformers) that uses number 45 triode signal output tubes. It is the most glorious piece of equipment I have had the pleasure of interacting with on an intimate basis. The customer originally owned a dCS stack consisting of Vivaldi (not Apex) DAC, Clock and Upsampler. We provided an SW1X DAC II Standard for him to test (currently $3225). He was able to output both SPDIF and AES/EBU simultaneously from his Aurender 20 SE and could switch between the two outputs in real time. His conclusion? "The dCS was slightly warmer and slightly louder, but otherwise they are the same."
I have invited Patrick to visit when he is in the S.F. Bay Area to get another perspective on SW1X, and I invite all forum members to come hear the DAC III Balanced here in a more optimized setting with our Lotus Group Granada Loudspeaker and to hear the DAC V Special with Wilson Alexx Vs. Please get in touch. Thanks.
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Hi Everyone,
I personally believe that audio is personal preference but I also believe that when you’re doing an A/B test then you should be comparing apples to apples. I feel that the five-dollar USB cable had a huge influence on the outcome and that the Reference Kassandra could definitely compete with any DAC at any price point. We believe that a digital cable is your most important cable in any digital set up and that the digital cable has a significant impact on the SQ.
When we did our A/B testing we found major differences between each DAC and when each DAC was properly set up, all participants in our testing heard the differences.
I am happy that Ron is going to take the time to hear the Aries Cerat DAC’s properly set up in a professional environment. Using a subpar server/streamer with world-class DAC’s is absolutely not a fair comparison and all DAC’s should be heard at their full potential. We believe that the server/streamer is as important as the DAC and setting up the server/ streamer properly with the designer of the server/streamer can elevate a system considerably. Setting up digital products can be as complex as setting up analog. It’s not a plug-and-play process when you elevate too world-class digital.
We are looking forward to Ron’s opinion will A/B testing the Aries Cerat DAC’s against all other DACs.
I personally believe that audio is personal preference but I also believe that when you’re doing an A/B test then you should be comparing apples to apples. I feel that the five-dollar USB cable had a huge influence on the outcome and that the Reference Kassandra could definitely compete with any DAC at any price point. We believe that a digital cable is your most important cable in any digital set up and that the digital cable has a significant impact on the SQ.
When we did our A/B testing we found major differences between each DAC and when each DAC was properly set up, all participants in our testing heard the differences.
I am happy that Ron is going to take the time to hear the Aries Cerat DAC’s properly set up in a professional environment. Using a subpar server/streamer with world-class DAC’s is absolutely not a fair comparison and all DAC’s should be heard at their full potential. We believe that the server/streamer is as important as the DAC and setting up the server/ streamer properly with the designer of the server/streamer can elevate a system considerably. Setting up digital products can be as complex as setting up analog. It’s not a plug-and-play process when you elevate too world-class digital.
We are looking forward to Ron’s opinion will A/B testing the Aries Cerat DAC’s against all other DACs.
So many ppl fighting over 1 bowl of rice....
My summary of all this is
Wadax wow seriously overpriced and no one buying this will report it sounds bad....it will be a serious hit to the ego if that was the case. A 13k dac would not sound better than a 200k dac. Don't even need to audition to know that?
Even an audionote 2.1. sounds good at 2k but we want more than good and the dacs listed are all more than good. Ultimately at the end of the day we just want something great for cheap...doesn't happen in real life. Compromises get made with a cheaper product ( like it or not 13k is cheap in this world we swim in)....with the super expensive products....you just pay a lot for hype and dont expect all your money to go into the prodict rather a larger proportion to the ppl eating the rice.
Manufacturers and distributors should not be on their thread....ppl already know the above and it doesn't need rehashing. Having manufacturers on just colours and clouds. Yes it might not compare well, so just release an even better model and a more expensive one?
It's good to have a comparison of dacs and thumbs up to the person brave enough to put it up.....he is probably going to find it harder to audition stuff now I can only imagine but he has done us all a service in the audiophile community.
My summary of all this is
Wadax wow seriously overpriced and no one buying this will report it sounds bad....it will be a serious hit to the ego if that was the case. A 13k dac would not sound better than a 200k dac. Don't even need to audition to know that?
Even an audionote 2.1. sounds good at 2k but we want more than good and the dacs listed are all more than good. Ultimately at the end of the day we just want something great for cheap...doesn't happen in real life. Compromises get made with a cheaper product ( like it or not 13k is cheap in this world we swim in)....with the super expensive products....you just pay a lot for hype and dont expect all your money to go into the prodict rather a larger proportion to the ppl eating the rice.
Manufacturers and distributors should not be on their thread....ppl already know the above and it doesn't need rehashing. Having manufacturers on just colours and clouds. Yes it might not compare well, so just release an even better model and a more expensive one?
It's good to have a comparison of dacs and thumbs up to the person brave enough to put it up.....he is probably going to find it harder to audition stuff now I can only imagine but he has done us all a service in the audiophile community.
Haha indeed! I know I will have succeeded when my wife stops comparing my system to car audio
good luck with that. I am sure if your wife sat in my room there is no car stereo that comes close LOL
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