Top Wing Seiryu arrives at Believe High Fidelity

byrdparis

New Member
Nov 24, 2015
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#41
How does your Tsugaru compare to the other cartridge(s) that you have on hand?
Hello DaveyF,
for now it is my only Koetsu, and with Koetsu headshell on the IKEDA 407, its sound great, very very musical (whatever that mean) and with a wall big presentation.
it is like (i think) most Koetsu's very "Mid" oriented so his sound signature is very Lush, liquid and big.
But, i think it is more suitable to Rock or Jazz Music if i need to choose it V.s the others i've got. i listen mostly to Classical music, and with HUGE orchestra or piano kind of numbers, i would like more resolution and dynamics with some more open high frequencies and natural voicing. also i think K' sound house timber is a little odd, its a nice odd, but still.
that why i'm thinking maybe to get one of the stones body Koetsu's. to get that K magic with all of the above detail and resolution. a different "voicing" cart, i can handle and its probably cool thing to have. for tailor some printing in to it.
after all i said, i think it was a great Buy and its a beautiful cartridge to look at and to play with! i have several lp's that was never sound so good till i played them with the Tsugaru.
i have my finger crosse that the Blue lace or the Coralstone will do everything WAY better and still will play that Big and liquid. that will be a dream cart.
 

DaveyF

Active Member
Aug 1, 2010
5,617
2
38
La Jolla, Calif USA
#42
Hello DaveyF,
for now it is my only Koetsu, and with Koetsu headshell on the IKEDA 407, its sound great, very very musical (whatever that mean) and with a wall big presentation.
it is like (i think) most Koetsu's very "Mid" oriented so his sound signature is very Lush, liquid and big.
But, i think it is more suitable to Rock or Jazz Music if i need to choose it V.s the others i've got. i listen mostly to Classical music, and with HUGE orchestra or piano kind of numbers, i would like more resolution and dynamics with some more open high frequencies and natural voicing. also i think K' sound house timber is a little odd, its a nice odd, but still.
that why i'm thinking maybe to get one of the stones body Koetsu's. to get that K magic with all of the above detail and resolution. a different "voicing" cart, i can handle and its probably cool thing to have. for tailor some printing in to it.
after all i said, i think it was a great Buy and its a beautiful cartridge to look at and to play with! i have several lp's that was never sound so good till i played them with the Tsugaru.
i have my finger crosse that the Blue lace or the Coralstone will do everything WAY better and still will play that Big and liquid. that will be a dream cart.

Thanks for the reply. Couple of thoughts here: I suspect that the Tsugaru will actually do a lot better in an arm that is lighter weight and with an integral headshell. Also, I think a load of 750-1000 ohms might give it more control...which would benefit the classical listening.
As to the relative lack of resolution, that is something that I suspect a more 'up to date' motor would deliver...something that I think the Koestu's probably cannot do....IOW, a cartridge like the Lyra's or the new Transfigurations. I would guess that the Blue Lace will only offer you a similar presentation as the Tsugaru...very similar. Would be interesting to see, but here in the US ( due to the importer's crazy pricing) that is a very costly experiment.:(
 

byrdparis

New Member
Nov 24, 2015
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Israel
#43
Thanks for the reply. Couple of thoughts here: I suspect that the Tsugaru will actually do a lot better in an arm that is lighter weight and with an integral headshell. Also, I think a load of 750-1000 ohms might give it more control...which would benefit the classical listening.
As to the relative lack of resolution, that is something that I suspect a more 'up to date' motor would deliver...something that I think the Koestu's probably cannot do....IOW, a cartridge like the Lyra's or the new Transfigurations. I would guess that the Blue Lace will only offer you a similar presentation as the Tsugaru...very similar. Would be interesting to see, but here in the US ( due to the importer's crazy pricing) that is a very costly experiment.:(
Hi dave... thank you for your thoughts.
i will try change positions with it, to see if its actually do "better" on some other arms i've got,
but i suspect the overall presentation will remain. the IKEDA 407 is a very good and Lively arm! and with the Koetsu head-shell it seams that it fit and working great together.
maybe the Thales will do it more justice? (i assumed that it will be more polite then with the Ikeda...so i didn't try it yet.)
regarding the loading, i was connecting it to the current input on my CH P1 phono stage, so... i suspect its in his optimum working condition. i can switch it over to the voltage inputs and try your suggestion, or switch it altogether to my other phono stage in my EAR912 and use the Integral MC step-up to pair with it (also i assumed due to the fact the EAR 912 is a valve based phono stage it will colour it even more!)
for more up to date presentation and resolution, i have a bunch of others Cart's. so, i'm not so worry about it. like i said, i love the Tsugaru "different" approach, but couldn't help myself thinking about what the Stones Koetsu's will deliver v.s the Urushi... that why i'm contemplating with order one of them too. (i guess the costs are High everywhere in the world if you not buying\living in Japan. so - crazy indeed).
 

spiritofmusic

Member Sponsor
Jun 13, 2013
6,227
11
38
E. England
#44
I’m blessed myself to have a lightning fast, but naturally warm and musical cart, in the form of Soundsmith Straingauge w bespoke psu.
So I have some idea of how stellar the Top Wings are.
While others fantasise over the AS2000, AF1 Premium etc, I’d sure love to hear the Red or Blue on a Grand Prix Monaco 2.0/Thales Statement/Robert Koda MC1.
I believe that setup would kick proverbial ass LOL.
I could also imagine Primary Control Kinea w Field Coil arm, or Torqueo idler w SAEC506 arm, and Ares Cerat phono, plus the Red or Blue, would both be stellar too.
 

DaveyF

Active Member
Aug 1, 2010
5,617
2
38
La Jolla, Calif USA
#45
Hi dave... thank you for your thoughts.
i will try change positions with it, to see if its actually do "better" on some other arms i've got,
but i suspect the overall presentation will remain. the IKEDA 407 is a very good and Lively arm! and with the Koetsu head-shell it seams that it fit and working great together.
maybe the Thales will do it more justice? (i assumed that it will be more polite then with the Ikeda...so i didn't try it yet.)
regarding the loading, i was connecting it to the current input on my CH P1 phono stage, so... i suspect its in his optimum working condition. i can switch it over to the voltage inputs and try your suggestion, or switch it altogether to my other phono stage in my EAR912 and use the Integral MC step-up to pair with it (also i assumed due to the fact the EAR 912 is a valve based phono stage it will colour it even more!)
for more up to date presentation and resolution, i have a bunch of others Cart's. so, i'm not so worry about it. like i said, i love the Tsugaru "different" approach, but couldn't help myself thinking about what the Stones Koetsu's will deliver v.s the Urushi... that why i'm contemplating with order one of them too. (i guess the costs are High everywhere in the world if you not buying\living in Japan. so - crazy indeed).
Good to hear that you are going to experiment. As it was pointed out in another thread, sometimes this can really pay dividends. Since there is no monetary cost to do this, what's to lose? I would be very surprised if one of the alternatives that you posted wouldn't sound better than what you are listening to right now....but that might be wrong. If so, easy to go back to where you started.:D
 

byrdparis

New Member
Nov 24, 2015
243
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0
Israel
#46
Good to hear that you are going to experiment. As it was pointed out in another thread, sometimes this can really pay dividends. Since there is no monetary cost to do this, what's to lose? I would be very surprised if one of the alternatives that you posted wouldn't sound better than what you are listening to right now....but that might be wrong. If so, easy to go back to where you started.:D
no doubt.
very true. and i'm trying to experiment everything i can. but always keep enjoying myself and my music time that i cherish most.
 

byrdparis

New Member
Nov 24, 2015
243
0
0
Israel
#47
I’m blessed myself to have a lightning fast, but naturally warm and musical cart, in the form of Soundsmith Straingauge w bespoke psu.
So I have some idea of how stellar the Top Wings are.
While others fantasise over the AS2000, AF1 Premium etc, I’d sure love to hear the Red or Blue on a Grand Prix Monaco 2.0/Thales Statement/Robert Koda MC1.
I believe that setup would kick proverbial ass LOL.
I could also imagine Primary Control Kinea w Field Coil arm, or Torqueo idler w SAEC506 arm, and Ares Cerat phono, plus the Red or Blue, would both be stellar too.
there so much great (Superb) Combo you can "set up" to get Ultimate analog sound.
im now in my best era of sound i ever had.
my AF3 with several arms and a bunch load of cart's in my disposal to get different flavours and tastes. (and the TORQUEO T34 on the way...)

if you didn't listened to it yet, try to get yourself a session with DS AUDIO sets in a great system. they are probably the best thing money can buy now days (IMHO).
the W2 model (13K$ us retail±) is phenomenal! after i heard it, i sold my DS002 and ordered the W2 instead...it will probably be my GO TO... for classical music on the Thales simplicity II
 

byrdparis

New Member
Nov 24, 2015
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Israel
#48
D3D04052-F104-4D3A-B348-B93283F90651.jpg

Now it’s the Dragon turn.
This time on its own headshell that top wing deliver, mounted on the Ikeda 407.
 
Dec 20, 2012
15
0
1
Germany
#49
Hello,
Do you have collected some impressions in the meantime about the Blue Dragon you like to share?
I am eager to hear, hence either the Blue Dragon or the Red Sparrow are my next acquisition maybe.
Thanks in advance.
 

byrdparis

New Member
Nov 24, 2015
243
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Israel
#50
Hello,
Do you have collected some impressions in the meantime about the Blue Dragon you like to share?
I am eager to hear, hence either the Blue Dragon or the Red Sparrow are my next acquisition maybe.
Thanks in advance.
i have actually,
in a nut shell; the red sparrow is the better one no doubt.
although the blue is very quiet and smooth like a R2R player especially on its own headshell that TOP WING deliver,
i think the red sparrow have more finesse to its presentation overall. something about its ability to integrate with more arms keeps it way high above a lot of cart's i have and listened.
the red sparrow is indeed one of the TOP cart's i heard in my system.
after that said, i will choose between them carefully on base of your arm of use.

if you have an "Old school" arm, with a detachable headshell etc, i might consider to save some $$ and get the blue! its a very BIG cart (physically!) and its integration with its own headshell is crucial! and its sound Superb!
if you have some the more "modern" kind of arms, i will choose the Red Sparrow no doubt. its our there with the best!

hope it helped a bit,
see you in Munich?
 

DaveyF

Active Member
Aug 1, 2010
5,617
2
38
La Jolla, Calif USA
#51
i have actually,
in a nut shell; the red sparrow is the better one no doubt.
although the blue is very quiet and smooth like a R2R player especially on its own headshell that TOP WING deliver,
i think the red sparrow have more finesse to its presentation overall. something about its ability to integrate with more arms keeps it way high above a lot of cart's i have and listened.
the red sparrow is indeed one of the TOP cart's i heard in my system.
after that said, i will choose between them carefully on base of your arm of use.

if you have an "Old school" arm, with a detachable headshell etc, i might consider to save some $$ and get the blue! its a very BIG cart (physically!) and its integration with its own headshell is crucial! and its sound Superb!
if you have some the more "modern" kind of arms, i will choose the Red Sparrow no doubt. its our there with the best!

hope it helped a bit,
see you in Munich?
Interesting that you bring up the point about an "old school" arm with a detachable headshell, etc., In the old days...and I believe currently too, the fact that an arm had a detachable headshell meant that it was loosing information at the junction between the headshell and the arm. Simply due to the fact that there was another connection at that point. IME, that is exactly what one hears when you compare a modern arm with a fixed headshell and the "old school" arm with the detachable.
I would therefore agree with you, if you truly want the very best reproduction from analog, then choosing an arm that is not "old school" is going to be the way to go. Many on this forum won't agree with this stance, but that's IMHO.:cool:
 
Dec 20, 2012
15
0
1
Germany
#52
i have actually,
in a nut shell; the red sparrow is the better one no doubt.
although the blue is very quiet and smooth like a R2R player especially on its own headshell that TOP WING deliver,
i think the red sparrow have more finesse to its presentation overall. something about its ability to integrate with more arms keeps it way high above a lot of cart's i have and listened.
the red sparrow is indeed one of the TOP cart's i heard in my system.
after that said, i will choose between them carefully on base of your arm of use.

if you have an "Old school" arm, with a detachable headshell etc, i might consider to save some $$ and get the blue! its a very BIG cart (physically!) and its integration with its own headshell is crucial! and its sound Superb!
if you have some the more "modern" kind of arms, i will choose the Red Sparrow no doubt. its our there with the best!

hope it helped a bit,
see you in Munich?
Hi,
Thanks a lot for sharing your insights. My first idea was to purchase the Blue Dragon and use a Ikeda 407 for it.
But I think, also taking in account what you have written, the Red Sperrow will deliver more, although being more expensive.
I have several modern tonearms, so I will use my Kuzma 4Point maybe in this case.
And yes, I am planing to be in Munich, but only on Thursday by my current schedule.
Maybe we can meet (?) :)
 

byrdparis

New Member
Nov 24, 2015
243
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0
Israel
#53
Hi,
Thanks a lot for sharing your insights. My first idea was to purchase the Blue Dragon and use a Ikeda 407 for it.
But I think, also taking in account what you have written, the Red Sperrow will deliver more, although being more expensive.
I have several modern tonearms, so I will use my Kuzma 4Point maybe in this case.
And yes, I am planing to be in Munich, but only on Thursday by my current schedule.
Maybe we can meet (?) :)
Hi.
i will be there all day on Thursday, will love to meet anyone who fancy about it.

i am using the blue dragon on my IKEDA 407 as of right now!
its a very good combo, and i think it might be the best pairing with the Blue and its own headshell.
although, my Thales simplicity II was getting it more focus in overall, but the IKEDA getting it to sing differently with more body in to it (i guess its just a bit of inter-modulation distortion adding there v/s the Thales - so... YMMV ;) )
 
Dec 20, 2012
15
0
1
Germany
#54
Hi.
i will be there all day on Thursday, will love to meet anyone who fancy about it.

i am using the blue dragon on my IKEDA 407 as of right now!
its a very good combo, and i think it might be the best pairing with the Blue and its own headshell.
although, my Thales simplicity II was getting it more focus in overall, but the IKEDA getting it to sing differently with more body in to it (i guess its just a bit of inter-modulation distortion adding there v/s the Thales - so... YMMV ;) )
I am happy to look forward meeting you in Munich.
Regarding the tonearm selection for the Blue Dragon my guess is, that the Ikeda 407 is a better match by its mass coming with, so better in dissipting the energy generated by the cartridge, especially a cartridges with a metal body.
The Thales is better in respect to the tracking error for sure, which explains also the better focus overall.
 
Dec 20, 2012
15
0
1
Germany
#55
Interesting that you bring up the point about an "old school" arm with a detachable headshell, etc., In the old days...and I believe currently too, the fact that an arm had a detachable headshell meant that it was loosing information at the junction between the headshell and the arm. Simply due to the fact that there was another connection at that point. IME, that is exactly what one hears when you compare a modern arm with a fixed headshell and the "old school" arm with the detachable.
I would therefore agree with you, if you truly want the very best reproduction from analog, then choosing an arm that is not "old school" is going to be the way to go. Many on this forum won't agree with this stance, but that's IMHO.:cool:
The additional connection joint was allways somthing that concerned me in the case of the “old school” tonearms with detachable headshells.
I remember there was a post here at WBF (?) by Jonathan Carr showing the tonearm with the wires outside the tonearm wand.
This maybe not everybody’s cup of tea and also critical regarding the shielding of the weak signals, but will give an answer which differences are due to the additional connection joint.
Of course having the wires outside will also require careful looking, so that there is impact to the movement of the tonearm!
There was also the Kondo IO-J cartridge with magnets energized by an external PSU, coming with a set of wires (signal & power) to be placed outside to the tonearm wand.
AN UK still has such a cartridge in their portfolio as far as I know.
 

DaveyF

Active Member
Aug 1, 2010
5,617
2
38
La Jolla, Calif USA
#56
The additional connection joint was allways somthing that concerned me in the case of the “old school” tonearms with detachable headshells.
I remember there was a post here at WBF (?) by Jonathan Carr showing the tonearm with the wires outside the tonearm wand.
This maybe not everybody’s cup of tea and also critical regarding the shielding of the weak signals, but will give an answer which differences are due to the additional connection joint.
Of course having the wires outside will also require careful looking, so that there is impact to the movement of the tonearm!
There was also the Kondo IO-J cartridge with magnets energized by an external PSU, coming with a set of wires (signal & power) to be placed outside to the tonearm wand.
AN UK still has such a cartridge in their portfolio as far as I know.
Actually there are a number of different solutions to the problem. However, the least accurate would be the "old school" detachable headshell. The fixed headshell...which is what many of us are using, still has the problem of the cartridge to headshell connections at the pins of the cartridge and the headshell. One solution, like you brought up, is to hardwire the wire from the cartridge all the way to the phono section...which is kind of what JCarr was suggesting. This can bring its own set of issues, like you also touched upon. Another, less complete solution, is what the upper line Linn cartridges do, they have a flying lead off the cartridge that attaches to pins at the Linn arm headshell....thereby relieving one connection point ( at the cartridge).
My point though, in my prior post, was that the "old fashioned" removable headshell arm type is actually the worst offender here...and the losses are clearly audible when compared with a top level modern arm with a fixed headshell...
 
Dec 20, 2012
15
0
1
Germany
#57
Actually there are a number of different solutions to the problem. However, the least accurate would be the "old school" detachable headshell. The fixed headshell...which is what many of us are using, still has the problem of the cartridge to headshell connections at the pins of the cartridge and the headshell. One solution, like you brought up, is to hardwire the wire from the cartridge all the way to the phono section...which is kind of what JCarr was suggesting. This can bring its own set of issues, like you also touched upon. Another, less complete solution, is what the upper line Linn cartridges do, they have a flying lead off the cartridge that attaches to pins at the Linn arm headshell....thereby relieving one connection point ( at the cartridge).
My point though, in my prior post, was that the "old fashioned" removable headshell arm type is actually the worst offender here...and the losses are clearly audible when compared with a top level modern arm with a fixed headshell...
I agree, unfortunately there is always “one death we have to die“
Also soldering the wires directly to the pins of the cartridge will have also his own downsides and not only in respect to the handling of such a thing.
 

DaveyF

Active Member
Aug 1, 2010
5,617
2
38
La Jolla, Calif USA
#58
I agree, unfortunately there is always “one death we have to die“
Also soldering the wires directly to the pins of the cartridge will have also his own downsides and not only in respect to the handling of such a thing.
Funny, I have not heard that quote before...
How about this one...
“ there is no perfect solution, you just have to pick your poison”.