Hello everybody! I would like to know if you recommend using a record clamp and what clamp or clamps you are using and what sonic benefits you are getting from them.
To clamp or not to clamp
- Thread starter Snoop65
- Start date
I believe all that stuff is a big hassle for those who flip records on the fly, but I sometimes use a cheap puck that I bought on eBay. Also, I have a few of those Michell ones that almost never get used. They came with used turntables I bought over the years. A nice ring clamp would be nice for warped records that are hard to replace, though.
I have a SME 30/12 which comes with its own screw down clamp. Since I got it I haven't had one record that has been unplayable. Great at flattening warped records. I did pay, I'm almost embarrassed to say, $500 for a Furutech disc stabilizer. Doesn't screw on. It just fits over the spindle. Turned the sound to mud. Lost all detail. Not good at all. No more experimenting. With record clamps at least.
Hello, Snoop65. As mentioned before in the other thread, I'll mention what I have in my system. It's called "The Clamp" and it's pictured below...[not my TT or rig]
If you look at the picture above, you will notice that the outside diameter of the clamp lays firmly toward the outside of the LP label. What you don't see is one of the three varying thicknesses of a washer that was included that pushes the center of the LP itself up. When the clamp is twisted, it attaches with precision brass housing up against the spindle and lifts the spindle up while pressing the outer edges of the label down while at the same time, the washers push the center of the LP up. What this does is firmly seat the LP down onto the platter. Here's another pic of the underside and washers...
The end result is a lower noise floor [I reserve the right to allow for the wrong definition/context of noise floor], considerably improved sound stage and vastly improved weight of the overall performance, no matter who you may be listening too. Having a weight and having a "clamp" are two completely different balls of wax. I have a weight that I can use but the sonic end result is nothing that I would consider a tweak. An enhancement perhaps but definitely not a tweak.
Unfortunately, it's not available anymore and I was fortunate enough to have one of the last ones ever sold. Within my audio journey, this clamp is perhaps one of the most cherished and valued pieces I own and I very seriously dread the day I may lose it for whatever reason. An alternative that was recommended by Joe [the designer of "The Clamp"] can be found in this link >>> http://store.acousticsounds.com/browse_detail.cfm?Title_ID=36249.
Tom
If you look at the picture above, you will notice that the outside diameter of the clamp lays firmly toward the outside of the LP label. What you don't see is one of the three varying thicknesses of a washer that was included that pushes the center of the LP itself up. When the clamp is twisted, it attaches with precision brass housing up against the spindle and lifts the spindle up while pressing the outer edges of the label down while at the same time, the washers push the center of the LP up. What this does is firmly seat the LP down onto the platter. Here's another pic of the underside and washers...
The end result is a lower noise floor [I reserve the right to allow for the wrong definition/context of noise floor], considerably improved sound stage and vastly improved weight of the overall performance, no matter who you may be listening too. Having a weight and having a "clamp" are two completely different balls of wax. I have a weight that I can use but the sonic end result is nothing that I would consider a tweak. An enhancement perhaps but definitely not a tweak.
Unfortunately, it's not available anymore and I was fortunate enough to have one of the last ones ever sold. Within my audio journey, this clamp is perhaps one of the most cherished and valued pieces I own and I very seriously dread the day I may lose it for whatever reason. An alternative that was recommended by Joe [the designer of "The Clamp"] can be found in this link >>> http://store.acousticsounds.com/browse_detail.cfm?Title_ID=36249.
Tom
I clamp. I also use various thickness sorbothane dampers under the lp before clamping. Their is a bit of a art as to how much pressure you should clamp down. Mine screws on...I clamp is as tight as I can until the outside edges begin to move upwards..then I back off so the lp is firmly seated as best as possible to platter...
I have no idea how a clamp could "suck the life out of the music".
I have used several clamps through the years with mixed success. I do not have a TT set up now so cannot offer any specific names, but here is generally what I have found:
1. I had a three-legged "Spyder" clamp. On the right record, positioned the right way, it helped greatly. However, with some warped records it would make things worse if not carefully positioned, and on some badly-warped records did not help at all. Meh.
2. The circular weighted clamps as shown above worked much better by applying equal pressure. However, in some cases they would make warps/ripples near the edge of the disc stand out more, a drawback. There was also a concern about the bearings and suspension for some of the heavier clamps. Some replaced the center shaft or end with a threaded insert and screwed down. Worked pretty well, but I always worried about a slip damaging the record or even TT bearings. Most of the time these provided the optimum compromise of warp reduction and (minimal to modest) cost.
3. By far the best IMO were (are?) the vacuum clamping systems integral to some TT's. These applied equal pressure all across the disc (little holes in the platter) to minimize warps. However, they precluded the platter mat swapping that was popular back then (probably still is), and a badly warped record could still defeat the system if there was not enough suction to hold a big warp down. And of course there was the pump to deal with, maintenance and noise. The better ones were virtually silent, about like an aquarium "Whisper" pump under light load; some of the more powerful were best relegated to a closet.
I have used several clamps through the years with mixed success. I do not have a TT set up now so cannot offer any specific names, but here is generally what I have found:
1. I had a three-legged "Spyder" clamp. On the right record, positioned the right way, it helped greatly. However, with some warped records it would make things worse if not carefully positioned, and on some badly-warped records did not help at all. Meh.
2. The circular weighted clamps as shown above worked much better by applying equal pressure. However, in some cases they would make warps/ripples near the edge of the disc stand out more, a drawback. There was also a concern about the bearings and suspension for some of the heavier clamps. Some replaced the center shaft or end with a threaded insert and screwed down. Worked pretty well, but I always worried about a slip damaging the record or even TT bearings. Most of the time these provided the optimum compromise of warp reduction and (minimal to modest) cost.
3. By far the best IMO were (are?) the vacuum clamping systems integral to some TT's. These applied equal pressure all across the disc (little holes in the platter) to minimize warps. However, they precluded the platter mat swapping that was popular back then (probably still is), and a badly warped record could still defeat the system if there was not enough suction to hold a big warp down. And of course there was the pump to deal with, maintenance and noise. The better ones were virtually silent, about like an aquarium "Whisper" pump under light load; some of the more powerful were best relegated to a closet.
I guess it's not a clamp per se, but I always use the record weight that came with my Forsell when playing records on it.
ive owned three tables with vacuum hold down, others with reflex clamps and screw down clamps. At the moment i have a VPI classic (with ring and weight), TNT (screw-on clamp) and Rega P9 (nekid) in the house. If you put their respective designers in one room and asked David Fletcher, John Bicht, Harry weisfeld and Roy Gandy the same question you'd get 4 different answers. Me? I think vacuum hold down has the edge if implemeted properly.
I have one, a good bang for the buck.
The only time I've heard a clamp suck the life out of music is with a felt mat on top of a rubber mat.
Tried this with a direct drive Technics. It worked best with doubling the mat for a VTA correction and using the Sota clamp. I still had to weight the plinth with brass, over and under it, plus some sorbothane on the brass feet to add some body tone to it. Unfortunately that table needed much more than a clamp to bring it to life and is a lost cause.
Snoop, there is another thread here from several months ago that discussed a variety of products and viewpoints. My table came with a heavy screw down clamp and I've been using the Stillpoints record weight, which has some vibration absorbing devices built into it- it definitely sounds different than the factory clamp. When I talked to Franc Kuzma, who makes my table, he actually recommended a clamp made of ebony, which he offers. There is of course the Shun Mook ebony clamp, which is quite pricey. Carl and Myles both had some input in the last thread on their experiences, you might run a search of they don't 'weigh in' here. 
Snoop, there is another thread here from several months ago that discussed a variety of products and viewpoints. My table came with a heavy screw down clamp and I've been using the Stillpoints record weight, which has some vibration absorbing devices built into it- it definitely sounds different than the factory clamp. When I talked to Franc Kuzma, who makes my table, he actually recommended a clamp made of ebony, which he offers. There is of course the Shun Mook ebony clamp, which is quite pricey. Carl and Myles both had some input in the last thread on their experiences, you might run a search of they don't 'weigh in' here.
Thank you for the input whart and everybody else that has posted. I use a Music Hall MMF-9.1 should I be concerned about the bearing for the platter with a weight?
The idea of clamps is twofold:
1-couple the LP to the platter.
2-flatten the LP
In case of 1; placing a compliant Mat between LP and platter kinda defeats the purpose of direct coupling. It certainly helps flatten the LP which can be advantageous, and it does "couple" to a degree, but it won't provide ALL the advantages of direct coupling - because generally - Mats are designed to decouple.
In most cases, a turntable that was designed to be used with a mat is best served - with mat. That said, in many cases, I've heard certain improvements with the LP/Mat/Platter scenario. In my experiments, this situation produces a darker type sound(*), one that's more dimensionally truncated and a little less precise, but one that's more tonally even and less prone to LP noise (depending on mat).
Coupling the LP direct to the platter, means you are coupling the entire turntable structure, it's environment, directly to the LP, and therefore directly to the stylus. That includes all the noise from the bearing, motor and environment (depending on isolation). In that case, the sound of such a turntable is solely dependent on it's design and materials.
The ideal direct-coupled situation is to have a totally neutral sounding turntable with no sound of it's own, w/ dead quiet bearing & motor, totally rigid with quick dissipating characteristics, and true isolation from it's environment.
Good luck with all that!
tb1
(*) as compared to direct coupled LP/Platter, sans mat.
1-couple the LP to the platter.
2-flatten the LP
In case of 1; placing a compliant Mat between LP and platter kinda defeats the purpose of direct coupling. It certainly helps flatten the LP which can be advantageous, and it does "couple" to a degree, but it won't provide ALL the advantages of direct coupling - because generally - Mats are designed to decouple.
In most cases, a turntable that was designed to be used with a mat is best served - with mat. That said, in many cases, I've heard certain improvements with the LP/Mat/Platter scenario. In my experiments, this situation produces a darker type sound(*), one that's more dimensionally truncated and a little less precise, but one that's more tonally even and less prone to LP noise (depending on mat).
Coupling the LP direct to the platter, means you are coupling the entire turntable structure, it's environment, directly to the LP, and therefore directly to the stylus. That includes all the noise from the bearing, motor and environment (depending on isolation). In that case, the sound of such a turntable is solely dependent on it's design and materials.
The ideal direct-coupled situation is to have a totally neutral sounding turntable with no sound of it's own, w/ dead quiet bearing & motor, totally rigid with quick dissipating characteristics, and true isolation from it's environment.
Good luck with all that!
tb1
(*) as compared to direct coupled LP/Platter, sans mat.
