The Upgrade Company

[Steve Williams]

Hi Jim

Consider his offer as it seems you have nothing to lose (except some pride) and everything to gain ( full price of the unit)

 

[naturephoto1]

You know Jeff, even using the switching box and throwing out the X aspect of the testing (which we collectively did poorly at and I believe is not representative) and look just at the preferences of the 3 listeners we have a somewhat different story than you are suggesting. Your conclusions and statements regarding science proving that there is no difference in sound are just not supported or at least are suspect. We have insufficient data, but there is a trend.

Below is a break down of the AB listening for all 3 particiapants:

Jeff 2 channel 5/6 preferred the stock unit and for multichannel 3/5 preferred the stock unit.

Dennis 2 channel 5/6 preferred the upgraded unit and for multichannel 2/5 preferred the upgraded unit.

Rich 2 channel 4/6 preferred the upgraded unit and for multichannel 3/5 preferred the upgraded unit.

So regardless of the fact that Jeff has claimed that he had a preference for listening to the upgraded unit in the "sighted" tests, Jeff preferred the stock unit in 83% of the time in the AB testing for stereo and 60% of the time for AB testing for multichannel for a total of almost 73% overall.

Dennis had a preference for the upgraded unit in stereo 83% of the time for the AB testing and 40% of the time for AB testing multichannel for a total of almost 64% of the time.

Rich had a preference for the upgraded unit in stereo about 67% of the time for AB testing and 60% of the time for AB testing for multichannel for a total of almost 64% of the time.

Multichannel playback was more of a problem than stereo.

Jeff appears to have found a different preference to the players in the AB listening sessions for the stock unit and must have been looking for something different than Dennis and Rich. Dennis and Rich had similar overall results and had a preference for the upgraded Onkyo 5508.

So apparently Dennis and Rich recognized something that lead to their preference that was lacking for Jeff.

Again, we do not have sufficient data, but there is a preference as noted with Jeff on one side and Dennis and Rich on the other.

Rich

 

[pepar]

You know Jeff, even using the switching box and throwing out the X aspect of the testing (which we collectively did poorly at and I believe is not representative) and look just at the preferences of the 3 listeners we have a somewhat different story than you are suggesting. Your conclusions and statements regarding science proving that there is no difference in sound are just not supported or at least are suspect. We have insufficient data, but there is a trend.

Below is a break down of the AB listening for all 3 particiapants:

Jeff 2 channel 5/6 preferred the stock unit and for multichannel 3/5 preferred the stock unit.

Dennis 2 channel 5/6 preferred the upgraded unit and for multichannel 2/5 preferred the upgraded unit.

Rich 2 channel 4/6 preferred the upgraded unit and for multichannel 3/5 preferred the upgraded unit.

So regardless of the fact that Jeff has claimed that he had a preference for listening to the upgraded unit in the "sighted" tests, Jeff preferred the stock unit in 83% of the time in the AB testing for stereo and 60% of the time for AB testing for multichannel for a total of almost 73% overall.

Dennis had a preference for the upgraded unit in stereo 83% of the time for the AB testing and 40% of the time for AB testing multichannel for a total of almost 64% of the time.

Rich had a preference for the upgraded unit in stereo about 67% of the time for AB testing and 60% of the time for AB testing for multichannel for a total of almost 64% of the time.

Multichannel playback was more of a problem than stereo.

Jeff appears to have found a different preference to the players in the AB listening sessions for the stock unit and must have been looking for something different than Dennis and Rich. Dennis and Rich had similar overall results and had a preference for the upgraded Onkyo 5508.

So apparently Dennis and Rich recognized something that lead to their preference that was lacking for Jeff.

Again, we do not have sufficient data, but there is a preference as noted with Jeff on one side and Dennis and Rich on the other.

Rich

Correct, we do not have sufficient data. We do not have sufficient data for any conclusions on preference as you have just tried to do. And by the way, if you can't identify X reliably, preferences are meaningless.

And what's up with laying this at my doorstep - "looking for something different" ... what's that mean?

Are you willing to participate in another test where we have more people and more songs limited to stereo? That would be the way to gather enough data for it to be sufficient.

Jeff

 

[amirm]

From hometheater.com:

"Silver Video Discs
For use as a USB DAC, the DX-5 requires virtually no setup. But it’s a little unusual to use as a BD player if you use the dedicated HDMI audio out (and you should). Through that output, the player converts Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio to multichannel PCM. You can output a Dolby TrueHD or DTSHD Master Audio bitstream directly from the player, but only through its HDMI A/V output. The DX-5 ships from the factory with the correct default settings for Audio Format Setup and Audio Processing, and these settings are repeated in the user manual should you need to enter them manually.

This isn’t the first high-end-priced player I’ve seen—or the first I’ve used directly connected over HDMI to a front projector in my system (in this case, the JVC DLA-X7 reviewed in HT’s May 2011 issue). It’s just the first one I’ve seen that actually looks better in comparison to other players I’ve seen over HDMI. In addition to the superb deintleracing and scaling I mentioned earlier, our battery of standard test patterns revealed sharp, essentially perfect response at the frequency extremes with luma and chroma. The DX-5 fully revealed the highest frequencies in these patterns, and the vertical lines looked crisper than they did with the OPPO BDP-95 I used for comparison (also a direct feed to the JVC DLA-X7). Yet there was no implication that the frequencies were peaked or overemphasized. There was just an almost indescribable sensation that there was a little more of something (or everything) there.

This feeling persisted as I started watching program material on Blu-ray. I consistently found my eyes lingering on certain details that hadn’t seemed as palpable on previous viewings with other players. A little extra shadow detail here, some more fabric texture there, a finer rendering of film grain, etc. There was always something. And this surprised me. With episodes of HBO’s Deadwood, I was especially attuned to the disparity between the softer, noisier interior shots and the crisp photography in the outdoor sequences. With Welcome to the Rileys and especially David Fincher’s The Social Network, I was really impressed by the low-level and shadow detail in the darker scenes (which is just about all of The Social Network) and the staggering dimensionality in the images. The DX-5’s revealing nature wasn’t always to a given movie’s benefit. It also showed a lot of the seams in recent-vintage but not minty-fresh CGI-laden constructs. I rewatched the first three Pirates of the Caribbean movies on Blu-ray, and I’d never seen the complex motion and tight patterns of film grain displayed more smoothly and finely. But I’d also never seen the CGI stand out as conspicuously as it often did with the DX-5.

Essentially, whatever the cinematic intentions were with any given piece of program material, I felt that the DX-5 delivered those intentions with a bit more observable expression. Photography—both film and digital—always looked a little more evocative in terms of texture, gradation, and depth.

But again, these are details. The overall impact was that movies looked and felt more like movies on the DX-5. There was also an easy-on-the-eyes quality to the picture that I haven’t encountered before. I know my comments on the HDMI video output looking better than other players will be met with skepticism. I get it. That’s how I felt before I saw the DX-5. But after I spent time with it and went back and forth between it and the other players I had on hand, I unequivocally looked forward to watching movies on the DX-5 more than with any other Blu-ray player I’ve ever used. I know a lot of us like to think that it’s all just 1s and 0s and that digital is digital. And often, that can be true in good and bad ways. But this is something different. Be brave and experience it before you pooh-pooh it (and me for writing this). "

This type of review is exactly why we have to be worried about sighted tests. As I noted, we don't need to rely on "feeling" and memory of another player to judge video. Everything he mentions can be measured. Everything. I can measure detail, black level, frequency response, color, everything. Yet while he mentions test patterns, there is none showing the difference. Are we to believe that you can change the texture of a still image and it would not show up at all in a measurement?

Here is the Ayre page for this player: http://www.ayre.com/dx5.htm

Why is it that they don't make any of these claims? Surely this would sell products. No? Yet, they quietly list the upgraded components.

Here is a sample frequency sweep:

There is only one and only one proper output here which is the lines getting closer and closer. What you see above is the result of exaggerated high frequencies in a display causing the pattern to change toward the right.

Again, video reproduction is heavily standardized and known quantity. The test disc has a pattern that is digitally produced. And what comes out over HDMI after being decoded by the player, is also digital. If the same underlying player is used such as the Oppo, there is no opportunity for the data to change.

On the audio side, digital audio is transmitted with "analog" timing so there, we can hypothesize differences even on digital links. Not so with video.

Trust me, I am the best friend a modder can find . But there is no wiggle room here for video. I invite whoever is making those claims to come here and explain why they think they have improved video. I assure you, they won't be able to make their case .

 

[MarinJim]

"Yet, they quietly list the upgraded components."

Are you suggesting that Ayre upgrades for the fun of it?

 

[mdabb]

Hi-fi is such an odd hobby which is taken way too seriously. It's hard to believe grown people's feelings get hurt over such a thing. In cases like these, it's not about whether someone prefers flavor " C " over flavor " Y ", it's about whether or not there is in fact a "real" improvement or not. However small that improvement is, it's still an improvement. It doesn't even have to be audible. Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't understand how "any" manufacturer or modifier can claim to have improved anything if it can't be tested or quantified in some manner. Again maybe I'm missing something here, but what heck do people think they are hearing that can't be tested or measured ? How can someone even successfully design/build a product that can't be tested or measured ? Are manufacturer's going to start putting disclaimers on their products stating "results may vary" ?

Strange hobby indeed... I'm all about great sound quality and appreciate advancing the technology that brings us such pleasing sound. However... for me, at the end of the day it's about listening to music I enjoy, and not nit-picking over that 0.00004% improvement in sound quality. More often than not, the music I enjoy most wasn't even recorded to audiophile standards to begin with. So at the end of the day there is not much to do except sit back and enjoy it for what it is.

Whether or not the kind of attention and judgments The Upgrade Company has received is unfair or not rests 98% on the shoulders of its' owner. Its' claim to fame has been made at the expense of other brands/modders in the audio world. If you are a big enough boy to call so & so out for what you think is poor quality to cost ratio, then you're gonna have to be able to put on your big boy pants, and back up your own claims and mods. You don't lift yourself up by putting others down. Professionalism could go a long way here. I could go on and on, but at this point in the game there is no need to.

If you can't actually prove that something is better (or the best) then it isn't. It's just a meaningless claim that you can't back up. Yes, you and many others may really love it, but it still doesn't mean a whole heck of a lot in the real world.

After all... it's just a hobby

Enjoy

 

[Jonathan90]

Great post sir!

 

[MarinJim]

Hi-fi is such an odd hobby which is taken way too seriously. It's hard to believe grown people's feelings get hurt over such a thing. In cases like these, it's not about whether someone prefers flavor " C " over flavor " Y ", it's about whether or not there is in fact a "real" improvement or not. However small that improvement is, it's still an improvement. It doesn't even have to be audible. Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't understand how "any" manufacturer or modifier can claim to have improved anything if it can't be tested or quantified in some manner. Again maybe I'm missing something here, but what heck do people think they are hearing that can't be tested or measured ? How can someone even successfully design/build a product that can't be tested or measured ? Are manufacturer's going to start putting disclaimers on their products stating "results may vary" ?

Strange hobby indeed... I'm all about great sound quality and appreciate advancing the technology that brings us such pleasing sound. However... for me, at the end of the day it's about listening to music I enjoy, and not nit-picking over that 0.00004% improvement in sound quality. More often than not, the music I enjoy most wasn't even recorded to audiophile standards to begin with. So at the end of the day there is not much to do except sit back and enjoy it for what it is.

Whether or not the kind of attention and judgments The Upgrade Company has received is unfair or not rests 98% on the shoulders of its' owner. Its' claim to fame has been made at the expense of other brands/modders in the audio world. If you are a big enough boy to call so & so out for what you think is poor quality to cost ratio, then you're gonna have to be able to put on your big boy pants, and back up your own claims and mods. You don't lift yourself up by putting others down. Professionalism could go a long way here. I could go on and on, but at this point in the game there is no need to.

If you can't actually prove that something is better (or the best) then it isn't. It's just a meaningless claim that you can't back up. Yes, you and many others may really love it, but it still doesn't mean a whole heck of a lot in the real world.

After all... it's just a hobby

Enjoy

No, it is a life style for some, and that kind sir, is all the difference.

 

[NorthStar]

I used to love my music from a small portable AM Mono r.a.d.i.o. :b

Now I can still feel the emotions even from my analog FM Stereo r.a.d.i.o.

 

[fas42]

I used to love my music from a small portable AM Mono r.a.d.i.o. :b

Now I can still feel the emotions even from my analog FM Stereo r.a.d.i.o.

Bob, it's always been a project on the back-burner to do my "tricks" on music from all sorts of radios, and TV: the intrinsic quality is there in the signal, so it would be a bit of fun to have a 30" TV suddenly project a massive and detailed soundstage when running the evening news, say. That would put people off balance, I reckon!! :b

Frank

 

[NorthStar]

Frank, you're too much! :b

 

[amirm]

"Yet, they quietly list the upgraded components."

Are you suggesting that Ayre upgrades for the fun of it?

No. I have read about their modifications from their chief designer and nothing in his explanation relates to improving video.

 

[pepar]

If you can't actually prove that something is better (or the best) then it isn't. It's just a meaningless claim that you can't back up. Yes, you and many others may really love it, but it still doesn't mean a whole heck of a lot in the real world.

The trick is to not have to prove anything. More and more outrageous claims. More and more testimonials. More and more threats against anyone copying their proprietary modifications. More and more sending people into forum threads to defend the company. More and more verbiage that casts a scenario with the world against the company and it's astute followers. More and more claims of having proof.

But never actually showing any proof.

It is am amazing business model, and one that seems guided more by the science of psychology than the science behind electrical engineering.

 

[RUR]

.... one that seems guided more by the science of psychology than the science behind electrical engineering.

Jeff, in case you missed it, his degree is in psychology, so no surprise there.

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

Bottom line is simple...if one perceives there to be a difference, then there is a difference. It shouldn't matter if others don't perceive it and others shouldn't demand or expect that he prove it. Everyone is free to follow their own path and there is no right or wrong.

 

[pepar]

Jeff, in case you missed it, his degree is in psychology, so no surprise there.

I did not know that. Wow ...

 

[pepar]

Bottom line is simple...if one perceives there to be a difference, then there is a difference. It shouldn't matter if others don't perceive it and others shouldn't demand or expect that he prove it. Everyone is free to follow their own path and there is no right or wrong.

Maybe you're right. He mostly says his customers see and hear an improvement.

 

[RUR]

I did not know that. Wow ...

Business Profile of:
Mr. David J. Schulte

The Upgrade Company LLC
1222 Walkabout Lane
Harbor Springs, Michigan 49740

Education
Bachelors Degree , Business, Psych, Soc, Science
University Of Michigan

http://www.zoominfo.com/people/Schulte_David_-888425.aspx

Note that he holds no engineering degree, whatsoever. Strictly self-trained, which is why it's so incredible (the perfect adjective!) that he can second-guess some of the smartest, best-educated designers in their fields.

 

[naturephoto1]

Business Profile of:
Mr. David J. Schulte

The Upgrade Company LLC
1222 Walkabout Lane
Harbor Springs, Michigan 49740

Education
Bachelors Degree , Business, Psych, Soc, Science
University Of Michigan

http://www.zoominfo.com/people/Schulte_David_-888425.aspx

Note that he holds no engineering degree, whatsoever. Strictly self-trained, which is why it's so incredible (the perfect adjective!) that he can second-guess some of the smartest, best-educated designers in their fields.

Ken,

I do not want to argue with you, but there have been many people that have become experts and well respected in fields that either had no formal training, are self taught, or have different educational backgrounds. Some of these people have become leaders in their fields outside their education. I am not saying that that is the case with David, but these things do happen.

Rich

 

[RUR]

Rich, you are ever the devoted customer.