The Schiit Yggdrasil 2 DAC

[Al M.]

I think it's often difficult to overcome being biased by pricing and whether people admit it or not, "You get what you pay for" seems to be an ingrained belief that is not very easy to put aside.

I do think most of the time the adage is true, especially in commodity markets with well established and understood products. In a luxury market where the product is not entirely understood, and/or where technology is allowing the rapid advancement of the product, this isn't necessarily the case because the price of one product may be higher for many different reasons that have nothing to do with the overall purpose of the product. Many times the reason for the price is simply to position the product in the market, the item requires the high price to be taken seriously. Some examples are the new AER BD4 and BD5 drivers cost $40-70k. They don't cost more to make. I have also heard several times of a product not doing well, then it's re-introduced at 2-3x the previous price, and now it does well. OTOH, often there is indeed a plausible explanation for price differences and I have certainly been more than impressed with a couple auditions of high-$ MSB DACs!

I think it would be interesting if the Yggy was put in another super-fancy case and re-introduced at 20x it's current price, I'd be very interested to see how it's received! Kinda like the Oppo disk player put into the Lexicon chassis some years ago...

Yes, all that.

In addition, the direct sale of the Yggy brings the price down. Way down.

For this, see my post #46.

 

[DaveC]

Yes, all that.

In addition, the direct sale of the Yggy brings the price down. Way down.

For this, see my post #46.

That's conservative these days. Margins are getting fatter... for cables, dealer cost is typically ~25% of retail. I see 50%+ off sales for many different cable brands on discount sites, at 50% off the seller is still making a 100% markup. Speaker and component manufacturers have competed for business by giving larger margins as well. Now, it's almost a given to get a "special discount" though, which can be substantial... this also plays into our psychology, but I think people need to do some research and evaluate if the company they are doing business with has reasonable pricing to begin with. Differentiating real value from price manipulation via inflated retail prices + sales and discounts seems to be the exception rather than the norm. For that reason the norm is getting to be setting total fantasy msrp pricing combined with making the customer feel they are getting a "special" discount.

Looking at how the market works, you can also see how simple cables can get expensive! I see cables that consist of <$50 in parts being sold for 4-figures, this is common. But, labor can be pretty high to be fair, say the final cost is $200. The cable sells to a distributor for $500 and onto a dealer for $1000 and now has a $4000 retail price.

Unfortunately, it's a lot like buying a bottle of cheap perfume. It's $0.10 worth of chemicals in $5 worth of packaging sold for $75. But you pay for the smell and the perceived value of luxury branding and an in-person sales experience where you can try it out first. In this case the cable it's self is the $.10, the industrial design, packaging and labor are the $5, etc.

Some of my cables cost me over $1k in materials and labor would probably be considered unreasonable by many. Similarly, you can find artisans spending big-$ on rare, natural ingredients to make perfumes and selling them for similar prices as dep't stores selling you $.10 worth of chemicals. You can also go to a high-end department store and spend many thousands if you want both big-$ materials as well as the luxury experience.

 

[Mikem53]

That's conservative these days. Margins are getting fatter... for cables, dealer cost is typically ~25% of retail. I see 50%+ off sales for many different cable brands on discount sites, at 50% off the seller is still making a 100% markup. Speaker and component manufacturers have competed for business by giving larger margins as well. Now, it's almost a given to get a "special discount" though, which can be substantial... this also plays into our psychology, but I think people need to do some research and evaluate if the company they are doing business with has reasonable pricing to begin with. Differentiating real value from price manipulation via inflated retail prices + sales and discounts seems to be the exception rather than the norm. For that reason the norm is getting to be setting total fantasy msrp pricing combined with making the customer feel they are getting a "special" discount.

Looking at how the market works, you can also see how simple cables can get expensive! I see cables that consist of <$50 in parts being sold for 4-figures, this is common. But, labor can be pretty high to be fair, say the final cost is $200. The cable sells to a distributor for $500 and onto a dealer for $1000 and now has a $4000 retail price.

Unfortunately, it's a lot like buying a bottle of cheap perfume. It's $0.10 worth of chemicals in $5 worth of packaging sold for $75. But you pay for the smell and the perceived value of luxury branding and an in-person sales experience where you can try it out first. In this case the cable it's self is the $.10, the industrial design, packaging and labor are the $5, etc.

Some of my cables cost me over $1k in materials and labor would probably be considered unreasonable by many. Similarly, you can find artisans spending big-$ on rare, natural ingredients to make perfumes and selling them for similar prices as dep't stores selling you $.10 worth of chemicals. You can also go to a high-end department store and spend many thousands if you want both big-$ materials as well as the luxury experience.

Excellent post ! Honest and insightful .. Thanks…

 

[gds7368]

That's conservative these days. Margins are getting fatter... for cables, dealer cost is typically ~25% of retail. I see 50%+ off sales for many different cable brands on discount sites, at 50% off the seller is still making a 100% markup. Speaker and component manufacturers have competed for business by giving larger margins as well. Now, it's almost a given to get a "special discount" though, which can be substantial... this also plays into our psychology, but I think people need to do some research and evaluate if the company they are doing business with has reasonable pricing to begin with. Differentiating real value from price manipulation via inflated retail prices + sales and discounts seems to be the exception rather than the norm. For that reason the norm is getting to be setting total fantasy msrp pricing combined with making the customer feel they are getting a "special" discount.

Looking at how the market works, you can also see how simple cables can get expensive! I see cables that consist of <$50 in parts being sold for 4-figures, this is common. But, labor can be pretty high to be fair, say the final cost is $200. The cable sells to a distributor for $500 and onto a dealer for $1000 and now has a $4000 retail price.

Unfortunately, it's a lot like buying a bottle of cheap perfume. It's $0.10 worth of chemicals in $5 worth of packaging sold for $75. But you pay for the smell and the perceived value of luxury branding and an in-person sales experience where you can try it out first. In this case the cable it's self is the $.10, the industrial design, packaging and labor are the $5, etc.

Some of my cables cost me over $1k in materials and labor would probably be considered unreasonable by many. Similarly, you can find artisans spending big-$ on rare, natural ingredients to make perfumes and selling them for similar prices as dep't stores selling you $.10 worth of chemicals. You can also go to a high-end department store and spend many thousands if you want both big-$ materials as well as the luxury experience.

A dealer accidentally left a cable invoice at my house a few years ago. He paid $324 for a cable that retailed for just over $1200.

 

[ack]

A dealer accidentally left a cable invoice at my house a few years ago. He paid $324 for a cable that retailed for just over $1200.

Yes, the stuff that DaveC posted about are all well-known facts.

 

[Joe Whip]

I worked for a company that sold cosmetics in high school and college in the summers. The mark up of the stuff that was also sold by other brands in drug stores was insane. We put the same eye shadow pans in prettier cases and marked the stuff way up. I used to pick the stuff up from the outfit who made the stuff for everyone. Insane business. As for the Yggy and DSD, I convert my DSD files to PCM for playback and get great results.

 

[sbo6]

I will take stab, with a counter question: why are people paying astronomical sums for cables; are cheaper cables not up to par or even better?

In most cases with system that are capable of significantly high details retrieval the more expensive cables yield better sonics.

 

[Ron Resnick]

As for the Yggy and DSD, I convert my DSD files to PCM for playback and get great results.

I totally appreciate that you get great results.

But might you get even better results playing DSD files natively?

 

[ack]

In most cases with system that are capable of significantly high details retrieval the more expensive cables yield better sonics.

I think this is your defining moment in high end audio.

 

[sbo6]

I think it's often difficult to overcome being biased by pricing and whether people admit it or not, "You get what you pay for" seems to be an ingrained belief that is not very easy to put aside.

I do think most of the time the adage is true, especially in commodity markets with well established and understood products. In a luxury market where the product is not entirely understood, and/or where technology is allowing the rapid advancement of the product, this isn't necessarily the case because the price of one product may be higher for many different reasons that have nothing to do with the overall purpose of the product. Many times the reason for the price is simply to position the product in the market, the item requires the high price to be taken seriously. Some examples are the new AER BD4 and BD5 drivers cost $40-70k. They don't cost more to make. I have also heard several times of a product not doing well, then it's re-introduced at 2-3x the previous price, and now it does well. OTOH, often there is indeed a plausible explanation for price differences and I have certainly been more than impressed with a couple auditions of high-$ MSB DACs!

I think it would be interesting if the Yggy was put in another super-fancy case and re-introduced at 20x it's current price, I'd be very interested to see how it's received! Kinda like the Oppo disk player put into the Lexicon chassis some years ago...

My biggest gripe with the Yggy is the refusal of Schiit to support DSD. IMO, it's a superior format. I don't have a ton of DSD music though.

In my experience with most products and services you do get what you pay for, there's rarely a free lunch. In audio gear, and in this case DACs, high quality components cost more $ than cheap ones. WRT vibration control, more substantial chassis, footers, isolation techniques cost more $. Better internal wiring and connectors cost more $. The few situations where lunch was partially free was when the lunch came from China where manufacturing and labor costs are low. However, there are a few additional exceptions where top notch engineering is employed and in companies that sell their products for reasonable margins is where these elusive products lie. According to Robert Harley, this piece of Schitt falls in that small club. I just might buy one to check it out.

Schiit Audio Yggdrasil DAC - The Absolute Sound

 

[Mikem53]

I totally appreciate that you get great results.

But might you get even better results playing DSD files natively?

The resolution is pretty similar despite their considerable differences in sampling rates, bit depths, and overall compression.
While DSD-formatted files tend to be smaller in size, they sound similar to PCM.
A DSD64 SACD has higher resolution than a 16-bit 44.1KHz Red Book CD, roughly the same resolution as 24-bit 96KHz PCM recording, and not as much resolution as a 24-bit 192KHz PCM recording.
Most DSD recordings are, in fact, edited, mixed, and mastered in 5-bit PCM (aka Wide-DSD).

 

[Al M.]

Most DSD recordings are, in fact, edited, mixed, and mastered in 5-bit PCM (aka Wide-DSD).

Indeed, there is very little native DSD; most of it has gone through PCM processing:

DSD Myth -- Grimm Audio

DSD vs. PCM: Myth vs. Truth -- Mojo Audio

What's the point of DSD then? It seems a bit like asking what's the point of digitally remastered LPs.

 

[Mikem53]

Indeed, there is very little native DSD; most of it has gone through PCM processing:

DSD Myth -- Grimm Audio

DSD vs. PCM: Myth vs. Truth -- Mojo Audio

What's the point of DSD then? It seems a bit like asking what's the point of digitally remastered LPs.

It Is my understanding that is very difficult to edit and manipulate native DSD files. Which is why they are created with the PCM process. It seems like marketing took advantage of a mastering process and tried to create a consumer standard that is similar but too difficult to work with.

 

[Mikem53]

Yes, the stuff that DaveC posted about are all well-known facts.

Well known facts, but not usually heard from a vendor selling cables.

 

[Joe Whip]

I totally appreciate that you get great results.

But might you get even better results playing DSD files natively?

Maybe, but I have heard those files at a friend who has an Yggy and a Terminator. i would not want to pick out which is which in a blind test. So, if they are that close, I do not really think I am missing something.

 

[rbbert]

The resolution is pretty similar despite their considerable differences in sampling rates, bit depths, and overall compression.
While DSD-formatted files tend to be smaller in size, they sound similar to PCM.
A DSD64 SACD has higher resolution than a 16-bit 44.1KHz Red Book CD, roughly the same resolution as 24-bit 96KHz PCM recording, and not as much resolution as a 24-bit 192KHz PCM recording.
Most DSD recordings are, in fact, edited, mixed, and mastered in 5-bit PCM (aka Wide-DSD).

I think you mean 5-bit PWM, not PCM; a totally different animal. And nativedsd.com does have a large number of recordings that have not gone through a PCM “step”.

 

[Mikem53]

Maybe, but I have heard those files at a friend who has an Yggy and a Terminator. i would not want to pick out which is which in a blind test. So, if they are that close, I do not really think I am missing something.

Good morning, I had similar experiences with SACD/DSD playing in my system via the Cary 306 SACD. When I bought the player back in 2006, it was very easy to tell the difference between DSD and PCM via the Cary player.
When compared recently to the Yggdrasil, I would have To guess which is which, they sound very similar.

 

[Al M.]

I think you mean 5-bit PWM, not PCM; a totally different animal.

From the above Mojo link (emphasis added):

"The purest common DSD recordings come from modern DSD masters that are recorded in Wide-DSD, which is in fact a 5-bit or 8-bit PCM format at ultrahigh DSD sampling rates. Wide-DSD is what most recordings studios are currently using."

Also, if I understand correctly, for the purpose of editing DSD recordings are usually run through 24-bit PCM (DXD), see the above Grimm link.

And nativedsd.com does have a large number of recordings that have not gone through a PCM “step”.

Define "large number".

EDIT:
Looking at nativedsd.com I find the following statement:

"At least 80% of DSD recordings offered on NativeDSD.com at the moment have some form of post production, which means they are most likely being converted to DXD - then through the Pyramix digital mixer back to DSD. Some labels also now record in DXD. So then it becomes acceptable to post the DXD as this is in some cases the original recording. There is a good deal of development in DSD at the moment so we invite you to keep tuned to NativeDSD and our newsletters."

Link:

DXD Resolution explained | NativeDSD Help

What is DXD? It is 352.8KHz 24/32 bit PCM. Explained in detail as to why we sell this resolution.

help.nativedsd.com

 

[Joe Whip]

It is the quality of the original engineering and of course the mastering that matters most, not the format. IMHO. I just don’t get the devotion of some to DSD. The good thing is that there are options for everyone in terms of hardware and software.

 

[Mikem53]

I think you mean 5-bit PWM, not PCM; a totally different animal. And nativedsd.com does have a large number of recordings that have not gone through a PCM “step”.

Mojo Audio’s definition refers to it as 5 bit PCM. PWM,PDM, etc are different techniques of PCM.