The Mysterious Case of the Listening Window! By Jeff Day, Positive Feedback

MadFloyd

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May 31, 2010
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Sure, there are some bad, irredeemable cabkes out here that just cloud things up and slow things down, lilike kielbasa Sosna. amazing guys would buy a $100k speaker famous for transparency “details “ but fuk it up with that....
Interesting opinion you have of KS cables. I'm one of the guys you are describing. I always thought the brand was well respected (at least the higher end models) and some of the best sound I've heard at shows used them as well.
 

caesar

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May 31, 2010
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Interesting opinion you have of KS cables. I'm one of the guys you are describing. I always thought the brand was well respected (at least the higher end models) and some of the best sound I've heard at shows used them as well.
Hi Madfloyd,
i had no idea you used them. I tried them in my multiple systems, and absolutely hated them for the reasons I described. If they work for you great. But I am afraid you may be missing transparency with them. Do try others if this is a concern to you.

best of luck in your audio journey
 
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LL21

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Dec 26, 2010
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I like the old Wilson X1s (both v1 and V3...never heard v2) when driving by a SET like KR Audio. They were a true 95db and easy impedance and had sounded great with such an amp. ...
Hi Morricab,

I agree and have to say, after 26 years, the X1 Series 1 is a remarkably good speaker, fitting in a 16" x 24" footprint and able to be placed practically in corners if need be. (In fact, many were, including Conrad Johnson's own reference pair back in the 90s.) At their current trading price, I cannot think of a speaker I would rather have. (There might well be, but to be fair, I have not had the opportunity to hear it.)

After listening to Apogees, ML, Maggies, Genesis (and another brand that came/went) on the panel side; Focal, YG, Hansen, Rockport, Tidal on the large cone side and Celestion, SF, KEFs, Gallo, B&W, Totem, Tannoy, Audio Note, Magico, Morel, and innumerable others on the smaller cone side, as well as a bit of Avant Garde and Cessaro on the horn side, I found myself drawn to the particular combination of performance the X1 provided me: scale, effortlessness, clarity, and the ability to reflect a remarkable variety of nuances in presentation based on a reasonably complex customized setup (positioning of each cone, and value of each resistor) as well as electronics. This included the ability to portray a similar intimacy and organic quality to my Sonus Fabers in the mids which I found absolutely shocking.

I also know that had I bought them knowing I would never move on from them, I agree with you that a huge SET like KR or Lamm would have been (and actually was) high on the buy list. But I knew that I wanted high power Class A for future flexibility, and here we are 10 years later with the XLFs.
 
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May 30, 2010
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magico and Wilson are the most popular speakers because of herd effects. Some audiophile are leading the herd, and you may be one of them, but most are just followers, as Bonzo explained.
I would feel honored to be one of the persons that lead the the large group of people that appreciate Wilson Audio speakers, but IMHO the suggestion is as foolish as suggesting the herd effects to explain the success of Wilson. I write in a very small forum that is intrinsically protected against such effect ;), and Wilson Audio sells tens of thousands of speakers.

I can't understand why some people come here to demote audiophiles in general, and particularly how they use words such as "most" without evidencing a minimal knowledge of numbers, presenting just vague feelings. Yes, I know, life is much prettier without numbers ...

IMHO knowledge in this very subjective hobby filled by an extreme diversity of quality products is also getting products that fulfill our expectations and create our musical enjoyment. Again IMHO, there is more knowledge in someone who picks a great dealer to help him assembling and setting up a great system than in someone researching science on materials in the internet and audio forums to choose a pair of speakers. Surely YMMV.
 
May 30, 2010
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Hi Peter,

cool that you found something you like. Sure, there are some bad, irredeemable cabkes out here that just cloud things up and slow things down, lilike kielbasa Sosna. amazing guys would buy a $100k speaker famous for transparency “details “ but fuk it up with that.... And Wilson guys who can’t control the bass in their room use bass- light nordots cables to equalize the room.

But I don’t think you can paint all cables with a broad brush stoke, despite nearly everyone hating Cables for high prices. (...)
Yes, you can't paint any cable with such general brand strokes. I have owned Kubala Sosna Elations (got the full set from a friendly WBF member many years ago) . I now know precisely why in my system it was not transparent at all and why in the system of a friend who got them they are highly transparent. The Emotions had a very different tonal balance.

And in my experience the choice of cables for Wilson speakers is usually determined by the preamplifier/amplifier and source.
 

caesar

Well-Known Member
May 31, 2010
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I would feel honored to be one of the persons that lead the the large group of people that appreciate Wilson Audio speakers, but IMHO the suggestion is as foolish as suggesting the herd effects to explain the success of Wilson. I write in a very small forum that is intrinsically protected against such effect ;), and Wilson Audio sells tens of thousands of speakers.

I can't understand why some people come here to demote audiophiles in general, and particularly how they use words such as "most" without evidencing a minimal knowledge of numbers, presenting just vague feelings. Yes, I know, life is much prettier without numbers ...

IMHO knowledge in this very subjective hobby filled by an extreme diversity of quality products is also getting products that fulfill our expectations and create our musical enjoyment. Again IMHO, there is more knowledge in someone who picks a great dealer to help him assembling and setting up a great system than in someone researching science on materials in the internet and audio forums to choose a pair of speakers. Surely YMMV.
yes, indeed. How many dealers will tell you dcs is the best digital they have heard and wilson is the best speaker there is.

dealers happen to be affected by bandwagon effects also.

It Is just the nature of luxury and entertainment industries. No one will be able to hear every combination out there. ( let alone that rooms are different.) So considering and accepting opinion of others leads to it...

you have to accept the fact that many audiophiles are not as well educated as you and do not have a full grasp of their preferences as you. Just look at all the dumb decisions being made ALL THE TIME. By seemingly intelligent people.

and the Acceptance of the platonism in this hobby is the most damning point...
 

the sound of Tao

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Jul 18, 2014
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It doesn’t really matter if someone follows the herd (the herd can perhaps also know best at times) or follow the heard in an audition trail that spans the globe. It doesn’t matter if we sign on to one dealer to do all the shortlisting for us or research the internet for aeons and buy all completely unherd.

We witness all the time the variations on paths chosen and evidence that there is no one way to get there and that each have their very own way for their very own reasons... some get it from the roads more and others the roads less travelled and it will all be what it will. It doesn’t even matter if we fool ourselves that we are in the end happy or right... not everyone is completely comfortable with concluding in contentment either.

As long as we are open to the not always knowing and allowing for change. Having a strong sense of what you are aiming for can be good if you like to navigate and for me it’s the experiences that lead to moments (shared and unshared) of modest realness, music and understanding. Already having the answers can just as easily hold us back from the flow of discovery just as much as it can create discovery.

The one thing that we do all have these days for sure is uncertainty.
 
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tima

Industry Expert
Mar 4, 2014
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He [Jim Smith] taught me not to listen to the sound of the gear. That lesson took me longer to learn.
It's quite something that JS could guide you (train you?) in that way. I think that is remarkable and probably worth the cost of his visit for that alone.

I've been fortunate having a variety of components pass through my system/room over the years. After accumulating several years worth of hearing and reviewing different gear, I've found most of it falls into one of two broad categories. There's gear that I review - researching its usage, engaging with the manufacturer, and ferreting out technical characteristics, then over 1-2 months taking careful listening notes with a variety of music. And there's gear I don't want to review. I don't want to review it because I rather just play music with it in my system.

The latter category is much smaller than the former. And I recognize that as I've become a better listener (I think) some components that fell into it several years back, probably would not fit well today. But I cannot help acknowledging these categories, these modes of encountering something new, do exist for me.

It happens almost immediately and one way I know this is through self recognition when I don't think about the particular component or my system as a whole, because the music draws me in. There are times I have to force myself to take notes, whereas gear in the other category causes me to observe its sound, to pay attention to the equipment.

The hard part to accept is knowing I don't have a lot of control over my reaction. And every once in a while, I'm wrong - that is, something that I did not take to initially I later came to appreciate. I've written before that I love gear that does not make me think about it. More recently I've said 'this gear feels like home.'

It turns out the gear I don't want to review is actually more fun to write about.
 
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tima

Industry Expert
Mar 4, 2014
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and the Acceptance of the platonism in this hobby is the most damning point...
Counting shadows on the wall, that don't bother me at all
In my cave 'til half past one, it's really lots of fun
Pecking at my keyboard and reading audi-oo
Now don't tell me I've nothing to do.

- w/ apologies to the Statler Brothers
 

morricab

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Apr 25, 2014
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Hi Morricab,

I agree and have to say, after 26 years, the X1 Series 1 is a remarkably good speaker, fitting in a 16" x 24" footprint and able to be placed practically in corners if need be. (In fact, many were, including Conrad Johnson's own reference pair back in the 90s.) At their current trading price, I cannot think of a speaker I would rather have. (There might well be, but to be fair, I have not had the opportunity to hear it.)

After listening to Apogees, ML, Maggies, Genesis (and another brand that came/went) on the panel side; Focal, YG, Hansen, Rockport, Tidal on the large cone side and Celestion, SF, KEFs, Gallo, B&W, Totem, Tannoy, Audio Note, Magico, Morel, and innumerable others on the smaller cone side, as well as a bit of Avant Garde and Cessaro on the horn side, I found myself drawn to the particular combination of performance the X1 provided me: scale, effortlessness, clarity, and the ability to reflect a remarkable variety of nuances in presentation based on a reasonably complex customized setup (positioning of each cone, and value of each resistor) as well as electronics. This included the ability to portray a similar intimacy and organic quality to my Sonus Fabers in the mids which I found absolutely shocking.

I also know that had I bought them knowing I would never move on from them, I agree with you that a huge SET like KR or Lamm would have been (and actually was) high on the buy list. But I knew that I wanted high power Class A for future flexibility, and here we are 10 years later with the XLFs.
Ah, I didn't realize you had moved on from the X1s... Apparently XLFs also work with SET but I can neither confirm nor deny this statement.
 

LL21

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Dec 26, 2010
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Ah, I didn't realize you had moved on from the X1s... Apparently XLFs also work with SET but I can neither confirm nor deny this statement.
I suspect you are correct, but I also am told and have read the XLF is not as friendly a load as the original X1s...neither as efficient nor generally as benign to drive. I also recall that even the X1s also showed a different side of itself with unbridled power...and that is even more so the case with the XLFs which are harder to drive. Yes, I imagine that 'some unbridled power sources will not have the nuanced, organic purity of lower-powered SET amps (I know some audiophiles would say 'all unbridled power sources will not have as much nuanced organic purity...' ;) )...but I also believe that in a large room, that extra power does add a different dimension with the XLFs in dynamic range, effortlessness which is also fun.
 

stehno

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Jul 5, 2014
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It doesn’t really matter if someone follows the herd (the herd can perhaps also know best at times) or follow the heard in an audition trail that spans the globe.
IME, the majority are usually way off base. If that is true, then following the herd probably isn't the best strategy. Unless I suppose one's ultimate goal is to be one of the herd. Which is a distinct possibility for many since herds are usually rather large.

It doesn’t matter if we sign on to one dealer to do all the shortlisting for us or research the internet for aeons and buy all completely unherd.
Since dealers are all over the map much like the rest of us plus they have motive, I'm guessing we'd stand a better chance going it alone. In my own case, of the 50 - 100 products I've owned over the past 20 years, I can only recall one product I purchased in 2000 after auditioning while all others were purchased "blindly".

We witness all the time the variations on paths chosen and evidence that there is no one way to get there and that each have their very own way for their very own reasons... some get it from the roads more and others the roads less travelled and it will all be what it will. It doesn’t even matter if we fool ourselves that we are in the end happy or right... not everyone is completely comfortable with concluding in contentment either.
Indeed we do witness many varied chosen paths. But still I've seen little / no evidence of any truly successful instances of this many-paths-toward-a-common-goal philosophy. Quite the contrary, IME, the more advanced the performance, the fewer / narrower the path. Moreover, when we consider everything about high-end audio is subjective, including our listening skills, I'd think it rather difficult to measure success much less define a sufficient meaning of the word.

As long as we are open to the not always knowing and allowing for change. Having a strong sense of what you are aiming for can be good if you like to navigate and for me it’s the experiences that lead to moments (shared and unshared) of modest realness, music and understanding. Already having the answers can just as easily hold us back from the flow of discovery just as much as it can create discovery.
So much of what you say in this post may seem thought-provoking or insightful but to me it just sounds a bit pie-in-the-sky or sugar-coating reality. For example. If you look around the industry you should notice there seems to be a tremendous lack of real leadership in perhaps every sector and perhaps unlike any other industry. Without leadership, herds tend to wander aimlessly at least in other galaxies. For those striving to generate revenue, there can be real advantages to lack of leadership / herd mentality e.g. thinking outside the box is frowned upon, maintain the status quo, etc. Hence, contrary to your thinking some have a strong sense of what we're aiming for, I'd venture the probabilities are rather high that, to one great extent or another, every last one of us (including mfg'ers, writers, researchers, dealers, etc) is flying by the seat of our pants (think all over the map) while staying within the herd. Better yet, perhaps there is a percentage that has a strong sense of what they're aiming for, but I suspect most of those types may well be chasing windmills.

The one thing that we do all have these days for sure is uncertainty.
You seem pretty certain of this. ;)
 

the sound of Tao

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Jul 18, 2014
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IME, the majority are usually way off base. If that is true, then following the herd probably isn't the best strategy. Unless I suppose one's ultimate goal is to be one of the herd. Which is a distinct possibility for many since herds are usually rather large.



Since dealers are all over the map much like the rest of us plus they have motive, I'm guessing we'd stand a better chance going it alone. In my own case, of the 50 - 100 products I've owned over the past 20 years, I can only recall one product I purchased in 2000 after auditioning while all others were purchased "blindly".



Indeed we do witness many varied chosen paths. But still I've seen little / no evidence of any truly successful instances of this many-paths-toward-a-common-goal philosophy. Quite the contrary, IME, the more advanced the performance, the fewer / narrower the path. Moreover, when we consider everything about high-end audio is subjective, including our listening skills, I'd think it rather difficult to measure success much less define a sufficient meaning of the word.



So much of what you say in this post may seem thought-provoking or insightful but to me it just sounds a bit pie-in-the-sky or sugar-coating reality. For example. If you look around the industry you should notice there seems to be a tremendous lack of real leadership in perhaps every sector and perhaps unlike any other industry. Without leadership, herds tend to wander aimlessly at least in other galaxies. For those striving to generate revenue, there can be real advantages to lack of leadership / herd mentality e.g. thinking outside the box is frowned upon, maintain the status quo, etc. Hence, contrary to your thinking some have a strong sense of what we're aiming for, I'd venture the probabilities are rather high that, to one great extent or another, every last one of us (including mfg'ers, writers, researchers, dealers, etc) is flying by the seat of our pants (think all over the map) while staying within the herd. Better yet, perhaps there is a percentage that has a strong sense of what they're aiming for, but I suspect most of those types may well be chasing windmills.



You seem pretty certain of this. ;)
I guess you are demonstrating that you also have your way and it is different to many others... though I don’t see anywhere where you’ve demonstrated that your way is better for others or even how it has worked for you.

I don’t know if you think your way is the right way just for you and if therefore you think your way is the only right way for everybody.

I would just not see it at all that way.

If my opinion of how things work is different to yours that is not really at all important to me and I’m unsure why it would be at all important to you. I’m happy you have an opinion. I am just at this point happier having my own and accepting difference.

If you think I’m wrong about the nature of essential uncertainty then something more than an emoji might communicate better where you think your idea on this would actually lead us. Will it lead us to being clever or to being wise?

I don’t choose to be negative with anyone who doesn’t accept my version of the truth. Some just regularly refuse to let go of disagreement and then just become entrenched in it. I tend to rather accept that after most things on a topic are already mostly said that we could just accept we think differently and that is actually all fine. It is healthier for me since getting caught up in developing conflicts is just not.

You and I can just choose to accept these things all just as opinions and that we can then just simply disagree and even better do so in a respectful way as well. That is just my way of being.

I’m happy concluding this from my perspective since for me there is no real increasing understanding being created in this other than confirming just a difference of opinion.

It is perhaps to me just recognising an emerging pattern of difference that is simply more clear and more evident and more enduring than anything else actually being said. Happy to just let it all go with that.
 
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stehno

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Jul 5, 2014
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I guess you are demonstrating that you also have your way and it is different to many others... though I don’t see anywhere where you’ve demonstrated that your way is better for others or even how it has worked for you.

I don’t know if you think your way is the right way just for you and if therefore you think your way is the only right way for everybody.

I would just not see it at all that way.

If my opinion of how things work is different to yours that is not really at all important to me and I’m unsure why it would be at all important to you. I’m happy you have an opinion. I am just at this point happier having my own and accepting difference.

If you think I’m wrong about the nature of essential uncertainty then something more than an emoji might communicate better where you think your idea on this would actually lead us. Will it lead us to being clever or to being wise?

I don’t choose to be negative with anyone who doesn’t accept my version of the truth. Some just regularly refuse to let go of disagreement and then just become entrenched in it. I tend to rather accept that after most things on a topic are already mostly said that we could just accept we think differently and that is actually all fine. It is healthier for me since getting caught up in developing conflicts is just not.

You and I can just choose to accept these things all just as opinions and that we can then just simply disagree and even better do so in a respectful way as well. That is just my way of being.

I’m happy concluding this from my perspective since for me there is no real increasing understanding being created in this other than confirming just a difference of opinion.

It is perhaps to me just recognising an emerging pattern of difference that is simply more clear and more evident and more enduring than anything else actually being said. Happy to just let it all go with that.
I just wasn't sure if you happen to type whatever comes to mind or if you give your thoughts careful consideration first. I'm curious because as you may know, when entertaining some of these philosophies, we need to consider their potential as well as their actual. And it seems some don't fare so well looking down that potential corridor.

BTW, do you suppose there is such a thing as the wrongful taking of a human life?
 
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the sound of Tao

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I just wasn't sure if you happen to type whatever comes to mind or if you give your thoughts careful consideration first. I'm curious because as you may know, when entertaining some of these philosophies, we need to consider their potential as well as their actual. And it seems some don't fare so well looking down that potential corridor.

BTW, do you suppose there is such a thing as the wrongful taking of a human life?
Not sure how my process of thinking equates to anything you just said and perhaps it is just another point of difference and simply discourse doesn’t need to descend into anything so unfortunately negative... the final part of your post on taking human lives was disturbing and also completely out of context for any further discussion. Please let’s just end this here.
 
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stehno

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Jul 5, 2014
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Please explain the above quote and the thread topic. I'm confused.

Only 164 to go.
It seems Tao likes to evangelize his religion of Relativism which includes his inability to say anybody's opinion is wrong. IOW, from Tao's perspective everybody's opinion has equal weighting and value and nobody's opinion is wrong.

I'm just trying to see if his religious views have any limits. So it seems Tao likes to evangelize his religion but he does not not like to be questioned about the beliefs he espouses nor have his beliefs put to the test.
 

morricab

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Apr 25, 2014
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It seems Tao likes to evangelize his religion of Relativism which includes his inability to say anybody's opinion is wrong. IOW, from Tao's perspective everybody's opinion has equal weighting and value and nobody's opinion is wrong.

I'm just trying to see if his religious views have any limits. So it seems Tao likes to evangelize his religion but he does not not like to be questioned about the beliefs he espouses nor have his beliefs put to the test.
I don’t think you are winning any converts...
 

stehno

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I don’t think you are winning any converts...
Sorry but I take religions and philosophies far more seriously than I do high-end audio as they are potentially far more impacting as history should clearly show.
 
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morricab

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Sorry but I take religions and philosophies far more seriously than I do high-end audio as they are potentially far more impacting as history should clearly show.
Which religion do you think Tao is trying to espouse exactly? Man, you are wound way too tight...
 

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