Taiko Audio SGM Extreme : the Crème de la Crème

seeteeyou

Well-Known Member
Apr 6, 2015
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How to set up a Windows virtual router to create a VPN-enabled wifi hotspot
https://www.comparitech.com/blog/vp...d-wifi-hotspot-with-a-windows-virtual-router/

VPN part is optional.



How To Use Your PC Computer Or Laptop As A Wireless Router
https://www.alphr.com/laptop-pc-wireless-router/

Killer Wi-Fi 6 AX1650x seemed to be working just fine as shown above, just wondering if their AX1675 version were any good?

https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/download/19779/intel-killer-performance-suite.html

Intel sharpens competitive edge in PC gaming with ‘Killer’ low-latency Wi-Fi chipsets
https://wifinowglobal.com/news-and-...aming-with-killer-low-latency-wi-fi-chipsets/
For example: Using the Intel Killer™ prioritisation engine, test show we’re able to reduce latency for example for a game such as Fortnite from 158 to 47 milliseconds (pings) – even with substantial simultaneous traffic running in the background,” says Bob Grim, Director Wireless Connectivity Group at Intel. Intel’s Killer Wi-Fi 6E feature technology was acquired through Intel’s purchase of Rivet Networks in May of 2020.



Qualcomm Unleashes Wi-Fi Gaming Performance for Windows 11 PCs
https://www.qualcomm.com/news/relea...ashes-wi-fi-gaming-performance-windows-11-pcs
In testing conducted by Qualcomm Technologies, Inc. with off-the-shelf retail Wi-Fi 6 Access Points, Wi-Fi Dual Station with Qualcomm 4-stream Dual Band Simultaneous consistently delivered sustained jitter free wireless gameplay similar to Ethernet latency under the same conditions. Further, in head-to-head wireless comparisons with Single Station Wi-Fi, Wi-Fi Dual Station yielded 4x lower latency and sustained jitter-free gameplay, underscoring the immediate value to online gamers.

So Windows 11 IoT Enterprise could also be stripped down, though not sure if Intel's and Qualcomm's solutions were applicable for non-gaming applications?
 

seeteeyou

Well-Known Member
Apr 6, 2015
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Obviously the "extreme" would be to use the Extreme for this, but i could easily up the ante on my pfsense by moving to a good LPSU, using optane boot drives, and a external clock etc.

Well, maybe we could also put a secondary Extreme into good use?

First of all, we don't wanna mess with the OS of primary Extreme too much but there will be so many things we could accomplish with a secondary unit.

For instance, some apps are only good for Android while Windows version of the same app might not be all that useful. Apple Music should be a great example, WSA (Windows Subsystem for Android) could support their lossless ALAC format while iTunes on Windows would only provide lossy AAC format at the moment.

Besides, there's also high CPU / memory consumption of PGGB-RT while dedicating a second unit of Extreme for a relatively "noisy" task could be beneficial by (physically) separating the upsampling side and the playback side.

Essentially that secondary unit could be treated as one of those DPUs such as NVIDIA BlueField-3 etc. but we're going for x86 instead of ARM cores.



And then we could also use that secondary unit for something like this, namely disabling a specific NIC that's connected to the primary unit whenever possible


3 ForceBindIP GUI to Easily Bind Windows Application to Specific Network Adapter
https://www.raymond.cc/blog/bind-windows-application-to-specific-network-adapter-with-forcebindip/

route traffic through specific nic?
https://community.spiceworks.com/topic/360168-route-traffic-through-specific-nic
 

Armsan

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Jan 28, 2016
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To whom might be interested, Jay’s Audio Lab YouTube channel just received his Taiko Extreme and is posting videos about his thoughts. There’s a first one comparing local and streamed files.
 

ctydwn

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Aug 23, 2019
349
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Interview with Emile should be available on Jay’s channel at 2:15pm EST today, for anyone interested. Looking forward to getting to hear from Emile!
 
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dminches

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Oct 22, 2011
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Interview with Emile should be available on Jay’s channel at 2:15pm EST today, for anyone interested. Looking forward to getting to hear from Emile!

Jay? Do you have a link?
 

ctydwn

Well-Known Member
Aug 23, 2019
349
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Really enjoyed listening to the interview and hearing from Emile about his journey and expertise.
Not surprising, Emile is so humble and such a gentleman. Thank you for taking that time and looking forward to Part 2.
 

Raker24

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Jul 27, 2020
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Just upgraded the connection from the Taiko Extreme to my Nagra HD DAC X to the Shunyata Omega USB cable. The results (after just 24 hours, no doubt more run in will result in further sonic gains) are stunning, a significant improvement compared to my previous connections (I've earlier tried both Wireworld Platinum 8 AES/EBU & Wireworld Platinum 8 USB as well as Audience Front Row USB). In this particular case (though not always, it's true), the price difference is more than justified by the sonics. In order to really test the AES/EBU connection, I've just ordered a Shunyata Omega AES/EBU cable in the same length (1.5 meters) to compare. We'll see what that brings to the table when it arrives.
 

caesar

Well-Known Member
May 30, 2010
4,300
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Gentlemen,
The latest issue of TAS supposedly claims Linn now has the best server . They got it on their cover I think . $40K . Anybody here looking to switch? A couple of months ago, TAS hyped up and glamorized the wadax server as the BEST... and just as some customers placed their orders, but haven't even got them fulfilled, those guys are pushing a new best... Any owners here, looking to change/ upgrade to Linn?

just joking here :)

Kidding aside, looking at the poll at the top of this thread, most people are using USB (but not sure if the poll is comprehensive and up to date). Any particular reason for that?

I've never cared for USB, but what makes the USB implementation stellar in this product?

Also, Stereophile just awarded the Grimm MU1 server Digital of the Year award. The usually milquetoast John Atkinson kind of went nuts:

"Oh, my!" JA exclaimed (in writing) after hearing music made with data sent via the AES3 output. He had been listening to an early digital recording via the MU1's Ethernet connection and switched to AES3, upsampled to 176.4kHz. The re- cording now sounded "dramatically better." "The tonal balance was still warm, but the congestion was reduced, adding depth to the soundstage and increasing the separation between instruments and groups of instruments within that stage." "There was simply more there there with the AES/EBU outputs."

What is Grimm doing differently for their AES implementation that this product, if anything?

Thanks in advance
 

Mike Lavigne

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 25, 2010
12,587
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Gentlemen,
The latest issue of TAS supposedly claims Linn now has the best server . They got it on their cover I think . $40K . Anybody here looking to switch? A couple of months ago, TAS hyped up and glamorized the wadax server as the BEST... and just as some customers placed their orders, but haven't even got them fulfilled, those guys are pushing a new best... Any owners here, looking to change/ upgrade to Linn?

just joking here :)

Kidding aside, looking at the poll at the top of this thread, most people are using USB (but not sure if the poll is comprehensive and up to date). Any particular reason for that?

I've never cared for USB, but what makes the USB implementation stellar in this product?

Also, Stereophile just awarded the Grimm MU1 server Digital of the Year award. The usually milquetoast John Atkinson kind of went nuts:

"Oh, my!" JA exclaimed (in writing) after hearing music made with data sent via the AES3 output. He had been listening to an early digital recording via the MU1's Ethernet connection and switched to AES3, upsampled to 176.4kHz. The re- cording now sounded "dramatically better." "The tonal balance was still warm, but the congestion was reduced, adding depth to the soundstage and increasing the separation between instruments and groups of instruments within that stage." "There was simply more there there with the AES/EBU outputs."

What is Grimm doing differently for their AES implementation that this product, if anything?

Thanks in advance
the Taiko Extreme has not crossed the path of Absolute Sound (or Stereophile) yet. which is not to diss the Linn or Grimm. but politics of Hi Fi magazines tend to tie awards to advertising relationships mostly, or at least to reviewed products.

hey; reality is that other 'top-level' heroic effort servers will be catching up with the Extreme. we can't dismiss them. but then, of course, the Extreme is not standing still either. not in the least. you have to own digital products that are going where you want to be later, as they tend to be not relevant forever.
 
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Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
Gentlemen,
The latest issue of TAS supposedly claims Linn now has the best server . They got it on their cover I think . $40K . Anybody here looking to switch? A couple of months ago, TAS hyped up and glamorized the wadax server as the BEST... and just as some customers placed their orders, but haven't even got them fulfilled, those guys are pushing a new best... Any owners here, looking to change/ upgrade to Linn?
I would bet that there are zero Extreme users who have any desire to switch. Caesar …… I would suggest that you audition one and have a good listen because it really is as good as we users claim. And as Mike said , Emile and his team aren’t sitting still as we users are expecting some big updates in the new year.

my impression of your post in this thread is tantamount to waving a red flag in front of a bull. This thread is probably one of the longest and most read threads on WBF. However all of the posts are eclipsed by an actual listen to the Extreme. It changed the way I listen to music.


As far as your other question re the poll being not up to date I would merely say that not everyone who is an owner has voted in the poll. There are countless lurkers who read this thread and are happy users

Also this thread has become a repository of information and suggestions from member users as well as from Emile and his team

Finally, IMO I would bet that the customer support and customer satisfaction with Taiko is like none other in the industry. IMO this service is priceless.
 

jaxho

Well-Known Member
May 18, 2021
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the Taiko Extreme has not crossed the path of Absolute Sound (or Stereophile) yet. which is not to diss the Linn or Grimm. but politics of Hi Fi magazines tend to tie awards to advertising relationships mostly, or at least to reviewed products.

hey; reality is that other 'top-level' heroic effort servers will be catching up with the Extreme. we can't dismiss them. but then, of course, the Extreme is not standing still either. not in the least. you have to own digital products that are going where you want to be later, as they tend to be not relevant forever.
I have actually heard The E, Innous statement AND Grimm back to back. My dealer made an event (shootout) between the three of them when mine arrived. And this is in a small town in northern Sweden. I cant stress this enough- thees guys at my dealer are incredible. Curios and willing to learn. Anywho- after the shootout they sold two moore Extremes! The competition? Zeeroo! :cool:
Of course there are/will be other servers/streamers that will be really good but The E will evolve too. In fact, Emiles statement that The E was not only a product, but a project (or something in that spirit) was a important part of why i was able to buy it with confidence (unheard obviously).
That and all the reading in this tread! Quite exhousting:eek: But im hooked! And i have a Shunyata Omega USB on order:p.

Greetings Jaxho
 

nenon

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Jan 29, 2020
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Let me add a couple of things to this as well.

First, the Extreme is 3 years old already and it's normal to (finally) have some competition. Technology advances quickly these days.
When it was released 3 years ago, it was developed to run as a Roon server. And from my point of view it was so much ahead of anything else out there that it practically had no competition. No other server was even close to the Extreme. That was the original stock Extreme server, which evolved a lot over the years but more about that later.

I have been very passionate about DIY server building in past few years and have probably spent enough money to buy an Extreme on all kinds of DIY server experiments, trying all kinds of different CPUs, motherboards, memory, storage, power supplies, etc. Money well spend in my point if view because the experience I gained by these experiments is priceless. A lot of my experiments have been documented in another forum thread. It did not take long to realize that the server in many cases makes a bigger difference than the DAC and that everything about the server matters. Every CPU sounded different. Every motherboard sounded different. RAM sounded different, storage as well. Many software settings and BIOS setting change the sound too. The list goes on.

When I thought I was at the pinnacle of DIY audio server development (I had a very special server with upgraded clocks, specialty USB and network cards, state of the art linear power supply, software, and probably hundreds of other tweaks I have learned over the years and many bells and whistles) I decided to try the hardware and software used on the Extreme. There are a bunch of standard parts I could buy from the store including motherboard, CPUs, Optane memory for the OS, NVME storage for music. And there are quite a few custom designed parts in the Extreme that people cannot buy. I managed to build my own DIY clone of the Extreme server. The biggest challenge was the passive cooling for the two Xeon CPUs. There was no commercial passive cooling solution (and I am still not aware of any). I somehow managed to build a DIY passive cooling solution for me and ended up with this ugly looking but well working passive cooling solution:
Screen Shot 2021-11-26 at 12.13.08 PM.png
That's a picture that's nearly two years old. It's laughable when put next to a photo of the Extreme but it did the job. I had no access to CNC machines. In fact I built this mostly on the countertop in the kitchen. I even put the heatsinks in the oven to help the thermal epoxy cure properly :).
A lot of things have changed since (RAM, Optane, storage, power supply, etc) but the ugly bent copper pipes are still the same.

The Extreme hardware I used turned out to sound better than my best DIY server. And that was without the fancy ultraOCXO clocks and bells and whistles of my state of the art DIY server. So I spent the last 18 months tweaking this server. No matter what I tried, it turned out that the Taiko way was the best sounding way. All of a sudden my hobby took a strange turn. It turned from exploring technologies that don't exist in commercial solutions and building servers that are better than anything else out there to trying to chase what Taiko has done and copy as much as I possibly can from the Extreme.

I knew a dedicated USB card sounded better on this hardware and had tried the two cards I considered best - PinkFaun USB with ultraOCXO clock and JCAT XE USB card. When I powered by the best power supply money can buy those sounded better than the USB output on the motherboard. At that time my DIY server was probably very close to what the stock Extreme sounded like. I've heard the Extreme many times but have never done a proper A/B comparisons with my DIY server. But let's say I was at least 80% there, maybe 90%.

Then Emile released TAS, USB driver, and a USB card. I was very curious about the Taiko USB card and managed to get one to try from a friend who has an Extreme and purchased the Taiko USB card. I spent a long time with the Taiko USB card on my DIY server. The day when I had to remove it from my server and send it back to its original owner was a sad day. I realized how good the USB card was. Yes, in case you wonder, it was better than any of the other USB cards I've had or tried.

I reached out to Emile to ask him if I can buy a USB card. Emile told me that the USB card was only available to Extreme owners (I thought we were friends, Emile :)). The USB card alone was a good reason for me to consider buying an Extreme. And I did not even use it with the Taiko USB driver / TAS. If buying an Extreme was the only way to have access to the USB card, I guess I had to seriously consider it.

With every single thing Taiko released, I found that my DIY was getting further away from the Extreme - TAS, USB driver, USB card, and next XDMS, network card, router, etc. I also visited Taiko this summer and saw some of the things Emile is working on (although I am sure there was a lot more than what I saw). It's stuff that I cannot do with DIY. You need a team of engineers, machinery, testing/measuring equipment, developers, etc. I don't have access to any of that.

There are usually two main reasons for people to go the DIY route. One is to get better performance cheaper by skipping the dealer commission, marketing, R&D and other parts of the cost you pay when you buy a commercial product. And the other one is to make something better than the available commercial products and to have an infinite number of ways to tweak your system. I was in both of these categories because I had managed to build servers that were cheaper and better than most commercial solutions. Well, that's not the case anymore. I can only build stuff cheaper but not better. I don't know how to do better, at least not at this time. And I do want to have access to all the exciting technology about to come from Taiko. It became inevitable that I will order an Extreme. I placed an order a few months ago. My Extreme is now ready and burning in at the Taiko factory. And my DIY server will go to its new owner once I receive the Extreme. I am happy to join the Taiko owner's circle. But the bottom line is I did not order the Extreme for what it was 421 pages ago in this thread. My DIY server is not too far away from that. I ordered it for the new enhancements that came in the last year and for the new technology that will arrive in 2022.
 
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Stereophonic

Well-Known Member
Jun 9, 2013
891
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Spain
Gentlemen,
The latest issue of TAS supposedly claims Linn now has the best server . They got it on their cover I think . $40K . Anybody here looking to switch? A couple of months ago, TAS hyped up and glamorized the wadax server as the BEST... and just as some customers placed their orders, but haven't even got them fulfilled, those guys are pushing a new best... Any owners here, looking to change/ upgrade to Linn?

just joking here :)
Hi Caesar.

816947ED-294C-48D0-B8CB-FB8F21336C19.jpeg

It would be a good joke if it were true…
Right, last Linn product called “Server” is reviewed by TAS and it is in its cover.
The trouble is that it isn’t a Server, it is a streamer/Dac….
Here you have TAS review conclusion:
“Summing up: If the Linn Klimax DSM is in your price range, you should definitely take advantage of Linn's Silver Service and arrange for an extended audition in your system. The Linn Klimax DSM is one of the finest DACs I've had the pleasure to audition, and unquestionably the best combination DAC/streamer I've ever heard, bar none.”
So, nice “all in one” product with high WAF factor.
Another trouble is that you are confused about Wadax Ref Server. There isn’t still any review written until now.
It was Wadax Ref. Dac who was called as 2020 product of the year.
So, it isn’t a Server, it couldn’t be best Server and far away from top servers we talk about here…
I don’t imagine any Extreme user even remotely thinking about that Linn “Server”.
Another wrong affirmation. Wadax has 3/4 weeks of delivery time…. Every customer has their unit in time and form…

Just joking….:cool:
 

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Taiko Audio

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Feb 10, 2017
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taikoaudio.com
Router - network update:

As we are receiving more datapoints from you, our customer base, evidence keeps building up towards the router / modem having a more significant effect on sound quality then switches or the general network layout.

An obvious issue in the quest to gain 100% consistency across the world is that you cannot simply replace those, and if you do you are still faced with differences in the environment.

Although we are aware that only a small percentage of our customers is interested in modifying their network setups and are satisfied with the way things are right now, we do want to serve everybody and not ignore this recurring topic.

Therefor we are planning to launch an experiment somewhere in Q1 2022 (note we will be quite busy rolling out and supporting our new software, XDMS, for a while), which involves an affordable off the shelf router, to create an "audio only" network. Naturally this creates a few usability inconveniences, therefor it will need clear written guides. We have a new member joining our team next week, adapt at writing guides in "Audiophile English". This experiment should help in giving further insights in exactly what causes variances in networking effects on Sound Quality and ameliorating those. Building on that we can then decide if we need to design an "Audiophile" router or if we can achieve 95%+ consistency with an off the shelf part with specific settings on that router and on the Extreme. Again we do have full consistency here right now, there is absolutely no difference in unplugging the network cable while music is playing which makes me believe this is an attainable goal. Please do not send us e-mails you'd like to join this project, we will make an announcement here when we are ready to start this experiment, and again, this will be somewhere in Q1 2022.
 

abeidrov

VIP Donor
Dec 17, 2015
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Router - network update:

As we are receiving more datapoints from you, our customer base, evidence keeps building up towards the router / modem having a more significant effect on sound quality then switches or the general network layout.

An obvious issue in the quest to gain 100% consistency across the world is that you cannot simply replace those, and if you do you are still faced with differences in the environment.

Although we are aware that only a small percentage of our customers is interested in modifying their network setups and are satisfied with the way things are right now, we do want to serve everybody and not ignore this recurring topic.

Therefor we are planning to launch an experiment somewhere in Q1 2022 (note we will be quite busy rolling out and supporting our new software, XDMS, for a while), which involves an affordable off the shelf router, to create an "audio only" network. Naturally this creates a few usability inconveniences, therefor it will need clear written guides. We have a new member joining our team next week, adapt at writing guides in "Audiophile English". This experiment should help in giving further insights in exactly what causes variances in networking effects on Sound Quality and ameliorating those. Building on that we can then decide if we need to design an "Audiophile" router or if we can achieve 95%+ consistency with an off the shelf part with specific settings on that router and on the Extreme. Again we do have full consistency here right now, there is absolutely no difference in unplugging the network cable while music is playing which makes me believe this is an attainable goal. Please do not send us e-mails you'd like to join this project, we will make an announcement here when we are ready to start this experiment, and again, this will be somewhere in Q1 2022.
Hi Emile,

What is your view about inserting another WiFi router between your main router and your system and connecting the two routers using WiFi bridge mode?

Thank you,
Aziz
 
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Taiko Audio

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Feb 10, 2017
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taikoaudio.com
Hi Emile,

What is your view about inserting another WiFi router between your main router and your system and connecting the two routers using WiFi bridge mode?

Thank you,
Aziz

Hello Aziz,

We have quite a few customers using this scenario to full satisfaction. I did not run comparative tests recently.
 

caesar

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May 30, 2010
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I think it up samples to 24/176.4 or 24/192.

Thank you so much. Since up sampling seems to be a big positive, at least according to Atkinson, and the fact that Chord sells a $5K device that seems to be doing something similar, is this a feature that you may potentially be adding?

Or is it easier to have your product in "purer form" and let the end customer find the best algorithm / chord-like hardware device that jives with their preference?

Thanks
 

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