"Synergy"

[KeithR]

So I have been thinking about this topic for some time---and thought I would throw it out to the forum.

For my own experience, I own Zu Definition 2s---and they really like warmer amps. The first BAT integrated amplifier I had sounded terrible! (although sounded wonderful on my prior Dynaudios) However, I bought a McIntosh and the sound "snapped" into place. Everything was glorious---great, great midrange, etc. My speakers are designed for SETs, which are warm by nature.

So my wonder is this---is the reason a speaker likes a warm amplifier because it has a recessed midrange to begin with, and therefore a choice of the speaker designer. Or on the other side---does Wilson and Spectral work better together because Wilson is too prominent in the midrange and Spectral is razor flat or recessed in that department.

I have had 10 amps on my system and they make more of a difference with 101db speakers than I care to admit, so lets not get into a discussion of are amps all built the same/sound the same stuff. They clearly aren't. But I wonder if the term "synergy" is simply related to a speaker's frequency curve and the amplifier's operation in that range.

Cheers,

KeithR

 

[fas42]

Here we go again! ...

"Synergy" to me is a lovely weasel word, which at its best simply means that the system is working properly, that is, low in audible unpleasant distortion. Many people believe all or most of the damage is done by having non-perfect frequency responses, but everything I've played with says that what's key is the level of disturbing, irritating distortion. A non-flat frequency response can then either highlight or soften that distortion to quite a degree, hence the belief that playing with tone controls and accessories that manipulate the frequency response is extremely useful.

Where you are having "problems", is that the speakers you talk of are very sensitive, so in the same way that a hissy amp will be very obvious, every "defect" or subtle distortion creating area in the system will be that much more apparent with those type of speakers -- one of the reasons a lot of people don't like horns. What you call "warm" amps are really just better quality amps, they produce less "in your face" distortion directly or indirectly than others and hence are much nicer to listen to.

So, frequency response is very relevant in determining how strongly a searchlight will be thrown onto a problem area, but good "synergy" simply means getting rid of distortion, or disguising it by one means or another.

Frank

 

[mep]

Keith-We have been down the synergy road before. I think half of the people that responded don’t believe in synergy and the other half did and it turned in to another food-fight if memory serves me correctly.

As for my opinion, I think synergy encompasses much more than just the amp/speaker interface. I think it’s the entire system. Most synergy can probably be explained away by acknowledging that you have components that were designed electrically such that they are compatible together (output impedance is correct for the input impedance, phono gain is sufficient for the cartridge, efficiency of the speaker and the impedance are within the amplifier’s capabilities, etc.).

 

[microstrip]

Keith-We have been down the synergy road before. I think half of the people that responded don’t believe in synergy and the other half did and it turned in to another food-fight if memory serves me correctly.

As for my opinion, I think synergy encompasses much more than just the amp/speaker interface. I think it’s the entire system. Most synergy can probably be explained away by acknowledging that you have components that were designed electrically such that they are compatible together (output impedance is correct for the input impedance, phono gain is sufficient for the cartridge, efficiency of the speaker and the impedance are within the amplifier’s capabilities, etc.).

Mep,
I fully agree with you, except with the Most synergy can (...) . I would write Basic synergy can (...) - and would add a big BUT ... and here we go again!

 

[amirm]

How about this: do we agree that synergy is not needed if every piece is working perfectly?

 

[DonH50]

No.

 

[fas42]

Yes.

(the always difficult) Frank

 

[amirm]

Guys, this is a discussion forum. Yes/No answers do us no good. Let's have a food fight!

Seriously, who will say that an ultra linear, ultra powerful amp that goes down to lowest impedance desirable doesn't need anything else to compensate for it?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

How about this: do we agree that synergy is not needed if every piece is working perfectly?

synergy is more likely when the individual pieces are relatively neutral in terms of tone and frequency balance. otherwise the ultimate performance of each piece gets compromised to bring the total into balance. sometimes there are technical reasons for lack of synergy such as impedence miss matches, or lack of gain, inefficiency, or even interface issues. but actual synergy is a matter of opinion mostly.

the concept of 'working perfectly' is a matter of perspective. some gear is quite colored, but is designed to be that way. it may work perfectly, but not everyone would like it. so working perfectly does not necessarily mean synergy.

 

[amirm]

Mike, I am saying the opposite. If the equipment is achieving the ideal at every step, is synergy necessary?

Trying to see if we can agree to some vocabulary here.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Guys, this is a discussion forum. Yes/No answers do us no good. Let's have a food fight!

Seriously, who will say that an ultra linear, ultra powerful amp that goes down to lowest impedance desirable doesn't need anything else to compensate for it?

most amps that are said to have those characterisitics sound like sh*t. they can be good for arc welding thou.

seriously; an amp like that typically needs gear that will blunt the sterility. which then gets in the way of the musical message and you are left with mush.....or you mate it with a clinical speaker and it's like an ice pic to the brain.

better to start with an honestly musical modestly power amp and find a speaker which gives you some life and soul. there are many many choices.

you cannot fix an amplifier that is without a natural balance of it's own. and ultra power, ultra linear comes with a price......

 

[amirm]

So we are saying an amp needs to be defective from measurement point of view to sound good???

 

[fas42]

The "working perfectly" is the key issue: as you're implying, that means that the equipment is contributing zero audible distortion to the replay. The amplifier you suggest would be a long way towards a suitable unit, provided you could "prove" that it wasn't affected by the presence of other components: as an example, that a digital source nearby electrically didn't degrade its performance. The things that Mike speaks of should make no difference to such an amplifier ...

Frank

 

[fas42]

an amp like that typically needs gear that will blunt the sterility. which then gets in the way of the musical message and you are left with mush.....or you mate it with a clinical speaker and it's like an ice pic to the brain.

better to start with an honestly musical modestly power amp and find a speaker which gives you some life and soul. there are many many choices.

you cannot fix an amplifier that is without a natural balance of it's own. and ultra power, ultra linear comes with a price......

Sorry, severely disagree, an amp that can be called "sterile" is defective, it most certainly is contributing audible distortion. That ultra powerful amps are that way typically is because the makers have still taken some short cuts AND the high volume replay possible emphasises every defect throughout the rest of the system ...

Frank

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike, I am saying the opposite. If the equipment is achieving the ideal at every step, is synergy necessary?

Trying to see if we can agree to some vocabulary here.

preamps, amps, and speakers need synergy. they create the environment.

sources that can 'perform correctly' should work in any synergistic preamp/amp/speaker system.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

So we are saying an amp needs to be defective from measurement point of view to sound good???

no; but if we had 10 amplifiers and we listened to them and ranked them by listening i know they would not be ranked according to measurements. not to say that having good measured performance is not a valuable thing. but it's not the main thing. most quality amps measure competently. but the best amps sound the best. i know i would never purchase an amplifier based on measurments.

and particularly a very high powered amp, i would be skeptical that the soul of the music remained after being subjected to all the circuitry.....who cares how linear it is if there is less signal left......or another way to say it would be 'too much added sound of the circuit has been added to the music'.

 

[DonH50]

Synergy to me implies components that work together to create the best sound. From that point of view, if by "perfect" we mean measurably perfect, and that is the best sound, then synergy is a non-issue. In that I agree with Amir (no surprise there). However, real-world components are not perfect, and "best sound" varies by listener. Another way of defining synergy (for me) is that the whole is greater than the parts. A horn speaker combined with a bright-sounding SS amp may be painfully lacking in synergy as evidenced by piercing mids and highs. A tube amp driving big dynamic speakers with large impedance excursions is a system that (to me) lacks synergy, a tale told by bloated bass and lack of clean control in the midrange. Another listener may feel differently, and synergy means a different sound to him (her, it, whatever), but the concept of synergy -- achieving the best sound (i.e. most desired to/for/by the listener) from the optimum combination of components -- is the same.

At least to me.

Better, Amir? I was practicing earlier, too much to type whilst playing... - Don

 

[fas42]

and particularly a very high powered amp, i would be skeptical that the soul of the music remained after being subjected to all the circuitry.....who cares how linear it is if there is less signal left......or another way to say it would be 'too much added sound of the circuit has been added to the music'.

First thing, Mike, a high powered amp can in essence have exactly the same circuitry as a low powered one. The only difference would be that the voltages inside are much higher, and there are more output devices in parallel to be able to deliver the current the speakers would typically demand. The most significant variation in the circuitry would be the use of transistors, etc, that can handle these higher levels of voltage and current.

But why these higher powered units often don't do as well is that the designers don't know how to organise the components inside the box so that they are effectively working in the same electrical environment as a low powered one. In a low powered amp everything can be on one board, all components in close proximately; in the big fella everything is spread out, separated into modules, you have wiring looms to cart the signals around -- a whole lot of weaknesses nicely engineered into the assembly. Major tweaking and reorganising of the layout of the powerful amp will sort out a lot of the audible problems ...

Frank

 

[Nicholas Bedworth]

Basically most components, whether it's speakers or cables or amps, are all voiced, usually intentionally, in a very specific way. A few are quite neutral. I'd certainly prefer to do as much as possible with neutral components, otherwise it does seem like you'll end up chasing your tail. What's interesting to me is to hear reports of enthusiasts who put in a known, proven, measured, very low jitter digital source, and suddenly their system sounds lousy, usually way too bright.

This is sort of reverse synergy. Apparently, their prior source was so mushy as to cover up overly bright devices downstream. Seems to me that a lousy source and a bright amp is a really bad combination. If the source is essentially perfect, and the system doesn't sound well, time to make some changes.

And then there are the room acoustics... My present perspective would be to treat the room first, before spending any serious money on gear. I'm tending towards diffusers as being the primary techology. In the right room, a $500 Proton FM stereo radio will produce wonderful sound. And as many of us heard at RMAF the other day, $500,000 of absolutely wonderful equipment in the wrong room can sound painfully bad.

 

[fas42]

I find it intriguing that most people don't use the phrase "levels of distortion" when describing the sound of components, rather warm, bright, neutral, as if this really related to the frequency response being altered. I would put money onto betting that the FR of these components was barely different, one from each other, but if you examined the distortion spectrum at the output there would be a wide divergence. So depending on the context, something is "bright" either because it is accurate and perfectly showing up deficiencies of equipment earlier in the chain, or it is in itself injecting unpleasant levels and types of distortion, which people again use the adjective "bright" for ...

Frank