Sublime Sound

[Al M.]

I trust visitors will have a similar impression, though I have had some audiophile friends from the Boston Group who did not real like the sound after the recent changes. One in particular liked the sound from a year ago much better when I still had all of the room treatments in place and the speakers were pointed at the listener.

But that was before your latest changes, Peter. That was at a time when I didn't like your sound either, frankly. Now the sound has done a 180 degrees turn and is the best you have had, in my opinion.

 

[Tango]

The synthetic tone everyone is talking about is due to the CH DAC in my opinion.

I was thinking about that vicinity but more toward the medium. Some of my violin on vinyl sound synthetic too. So it could be a particular piece of gear or even a medium. The owner would know. But the system has the right direction for me and would not be difficult to rectify if ever needed.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

I was thinking about that vicinity but more toward the medium. Some of my violin on vinyl sound synthetic too. So it could be a particular piece of gear or even a medium. The owner would know. But the system has the right direction for me and would not be difficult to rectify if ever needed.

Got to agree with you - that system sounds really good to me - digital or not.

 

[bonzo75]

I was thinking about that vicinity but more toward the medium. Some of my violin on vinyl sound synthetic too. So it could be a particular piece of gear or even a medium. The owner would know. But the system has the right direction for me and would not be difficult to rectify if ever needed.

I agree completely

 

[PeterA]

But that was before your latest changes, Peter. That was at a time when I didn't like your sound either, frankly. Now the sound has done a 180 degrees turn and is the best you have had, in my opinion.

Yes, but I think it was after the radical change of cheap Chinese power cords, zero toe in and the removal of acoustic treatments. It was all refinements and fine-tuning after that. Of course there were the additions of the Colibri cartridges and the new preamp, What’s the direction has been set.

I don’t disagree that it’s better now than it was then, but the real change happened before then and that’s when I knew I couldn’t go back. And that is what he was reacting against.

I think you were just uncomfortable with the change at the beginning also and simply didn’t like it in part because it sounded so different. It was a big break from what had been. I wish I had some iPhone videos of that set up. No doubt some would prefer it.

 

[Tango]

Imo, There is a difference between "experiencing" a good sound from a system to just "hearing" a good sound from a system. The difficult part is the more tangible experiencing part that the system need to be able to produce. For box speakers it is a lot more difficult than horn as for example we have been reading how long and how much effort it took Peter to get him to experience rather than hearing a good sound from his Magico.

 

[PeterA]

Imo, There is a difference between "experiencing" a good sound from a system to just "hearing" a good sound from a system. The difficult part is the more tangible experiencing part that the system need to be able to produce. For box speakers it is a lot more difficult than horn as for example we have been reading how long and how much effort it took Peter to get him to experience rather than hearing a good sound from his Magico.

Tang, I understand your point. However, I think it took me a long time because I don’t have a lot of experience and still have a lot to learn. My goal has also changed. Someone who knows more about setting up Magico speakers and achieving a natural sound would have arrived there a lot faster than I did.

Some people have similar revelations about the “sound” from adding footers or new cables. This is a different approach and somewhat controversial.

 

[Al M.]

Yes, but I think it was after the radical change of cheap Chinese power cords, zero toe in and the removal of acoustic treatments. It was all refinements and fine-tuning after that. Of course there were the additions of the Colibri cartridges and the new preamp, What’s the direction has been set.

I don’t disagree that it’s better now than it was then, but the real change happened before then and that’s when I knew I couldn’t go back. And that is what he was reacting against.

I think you were just uncomfortable with the change at the beginning also and simply didn’t like it in part because it sounded so different. It was a big break from what had been. I wish I had some iPhone videos of that set up. No doubt some would prefer it.

It sounds radically different now than back then, after you first made the radical change of cheap Chinese power cords, zero toe in and the removal of acoustic treatments. Back then it really didn't sound good; it sounded thin, that's why I didn't like it, not because of the change in imaging or removal of TubeTraps or the like. Now, it sounds very much the opposite, with a full sound -- splendid. That's a really significant change to me, not just a slight refinement and fine-tuning.

Yes, the imaging now is similar to what you had back then with the first change to zero toe in, and this is indeed a radical break with from before (similar in my own system). But that is the only similarity between the sound now and back then, after the first time of radical change.

The first improvement after the radical change came with the insertion of the metal plates under your components, which filled in the midrange as you said back then, and it continued from there, with another large step forward being fixing your power situation, among others.

 

[PeterA]

Al, I guess you know better than I. Perhaps your more distant perspective adds clarity and I am simply too biased. I always appreciate your opinion. Thank you.

The real issue, however, is that I still don’t think our friend is going to like the way the system sounds now. He refuses to listen to cheap Chinese power cords.

 

[Folsom]

I’m kind of baffled how you guys can talk about it so much. It’s not as if I haven’t heard numerous setups without on-axis toe-in before, so I have to imagine you have prior to now.

 

[PeterA]

I’m kind of baffled how you guys can talk about it so much. It’s not as if I haven’t heard numerous setups without on-axis toe-in before, so I have to imagine you have prior to now.

I do not think I had heard it before. I know it’s not new. I refer to it as radical only in my own system context. My local dealer certainly does not display any speakers with zero toe in that I have heard. Nor have I seen it at shows except for perhaps once with some MBL speakers. All of my local friends had their speakers more or less firing straight at the listener. That has changed for Madfloyd and Al slightly.

 

[Folsom]

I do not think I had heard it before. I know it’s not new. I refer to it as radical only in my own system context. My local dealer certainly does not display any speakers with zero toe in that I have heard. Nor have I seen it at shows except for perhaps once with some MBL speakers. All of my local friends had their speakers more or less firing straight up the listener. That has changed for Madfloyd and Al slightly.

Must be an east coast thing!

 

[Al M.]

Al, I guess you know better than I. Perhaps your more distant perspective adds clarity and I am simply too biased. I always appreciate your opinion. Thank you.

You're welcome, Peter. Your more distant perspective also adds clarity, to my system efforts. Thank you as well.

The real issue, however, is that I still don’t think our friend is going to like the way the system sounds now. He refuses to listen to cheap Chinese power cords.

You are probably correct.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I just remembered that I think I always had my MartinLogan speakers pointed straight ahead (no toe-in).

 

[Ultrafast69]

Wow, this thread goes all the way back to 2013. Long Live Audio!

 

[bonzo75]

I’m kind of baffled how you guys can talk about it so much. It’s not as if I haven’t heard numerous setups without on-axis toe-in before, so I have to imagine you have prior to now.

On Facebook high end passionates group, top three pics today are straight on, and as are many later.

 

[bonzo75]

 

[BruceD]

I've used ASC Traps diligently since 1990 --and do feel they can play a part in certain setups--I feel the vitriol served out against the product on this forum to be rather sad--I feel they have a place and do indeed improve my setup to my satisfaction anyway.
I use similar setup to Ron's ML's room above --with a Midrange Image trap as he shows-
-but I favour a Studio MidTrap stack rather than the bass one shown.
I'm presuming all as pictured though will be for the Skip in his new room--RIP!

My room has quite sparse walls and the traps help in my case.
Funny though back when the Wilson guys (Troy/ Brad) setup my speakers as per WASP
--once they'd departed I moved them out of" Voice Coil" line of sight as
I've always found with Box speakers anyway to just view a portion of the inner side from the listening chair seems to work for me.


Great thread through

BruceD

 

[Tango]

Don't be sad. They are not saying designer room acoustical product is generally bad. They are saying too much of it could be more harm than benefit or at least don't take them for granted. And different room requires much, little or none depends. That's the message. One thing I learned though. I would not know how they effected the sound in my room unless I had them on and off and on and off and on and off .

 

[Al M.]

I've used ASC Traps diligently since 1990 --and do feel they can play a part in certain setups--I feel the vitriol served out against the product on this forum to be rather sad--I feel they have a place and do indeed improve my setup to my satisfaction anyway.
I use similar setup to Ron's ML's room above --with a Midrange Image trap as he shows-
-but I favour a Studio MidTrap stack rather than the bass one shown.
I'm presuming all as pictured though will be for the Skip in his new room--RIP!

My room has quite sparse walls and the traps help in my case.
Funny though back when the Wilson guys (Troy/ Brad) setup my speakers as per WASP
--once they'd departed I moved them out of" Voice Coil" line of sight as
I've always found with Box speakers anyway to just view a portion of the inner side from the listening chair seems to work for me.


Great thread through

BruceD

Agreed. I have not just ASC TubeTraps, but also ASC ceiling diffusers, ASC sound panels and ASC window plugs. All this acoustic treatment isn't going anywhere, it's essential. In my room and situation that is, which is different from Peter's, as I pointed out.

As I said, I did get rid of some -- not all -- of the TubeTraps to good effect, similar to what Peter experienced with removal of all TubeTraps in his room (and I have heard myself that it really works there in real life, it's not just "ink on a paper" on a system thread). Yet that does not negate the overall tremendous benefit of ASC acoustic treatment in my room. I have also found that in a friend's difficult room some ASC TubeTrap stacks are absolutely essential; removal has a clearly deleterious effect on the sound, leading to transient smear and other unpleasant effects that make the music sound just more boring and uninvolving -- and less natural.

Peter got lucky with his room, that's all. Acoustically, it is really a great room for the most part. Mine on the other hand is an unruly bitch, frankly.