State of the industry - Roy Gregory Editorial

[bonzo75]

Tang will then buy M9 just to be member of both forums. And then we can report on one forum that we prefer the system belonging to the other forum based on his videos

 

[awsmone]

 

[rbbert]

Hello and good evening to you gentlemen. The admin team here at the WBF have a goal -

Our goal is to have a friendly place where everyone shares information without the level of bickering and angst that other forums tend to create.

Please (everyone) be a little bit more cordial and do not make things so personal. Just discuss the topic at hand...Please?

Tom

I'm afraid that ship has sailed...

 

[spiritofmusic]

Every man should have a goal. I'm afraid in this hobby, that means umpteen threads covering goals, and as many alternate words and spellings as possible.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

While I agree with your last three paras, the first para I thought I would overlay with my perspective.

videos or not, horns or not. vintage or not. cones and domes or not. uber digital or not. natural or not. one way being more righteous or not.

These all are quite different.. What I have underlined there was the forum default, and the other was the new comer.

Taking one by one...

Videos or not: not was the default. It is not the video guys that imposed themselves it is the guys who did not want to post videos that did. I totally understand why some don't want to post videos, I do not understand why they keep attacking videos though, instead of taking the positives from them. The discussions of to or not to is what led to the tribalism but the attack started with the non posters pointing out how videos were pointless. Which obviously triggered the defence.

Horns or not: I actually addressed this in detail in another post why horns grew in popularity on WBF from a few years ago. There has also been an increase of horn/ set owners and DIY people. That for me is clear progression. Raise your hands who haven't heard Wilson or Magico. You will struggle to find a regular audiophile who hasn't. It is just a question of how many set ups have you heard. On the other hand, we have very senior audiophiles here gone through their multi decade journey without hearing proper horns.

Worse, their lack of knowledge makes them not appreciate the nuance and they think all horns and all horn people are one. There used to be digital only guys who would think all analog is one and if you have heard one table you have heard them all. When we know less about something, it is all one homogenous whole.

There were attacks on horns from the guys who hadn't heard them as horns being only shouty or cuppy. They would point to random efficient speakers (as has happened on this thread) and claim horn experience. That was the forum default. The ones posting the most anti horn on this thread are the ones who have heard almost none.

Vintage or not: a bit similar to horns, raise your hands if you haven't heard modern. There is nothing to suggest to people to try out in modern, trying out modern gear is the default. It will happen automatically. It is vintage that you need to push people to check out as it needs more effort in research.

Uber digital or not. That's always going to be the case. Crazy prices everywhere and people should rightly question the value. It is not only for digital. Questioning value, imo, should be the default. A product really has to prove itself to command any decent price. The horn guys showed their skepticism towards a 174,500 USD priced horn as well.

Natural or not: I agree with you that, pinpoint, and black was overdone and in too many places with too many parallel threads. As was resolution. But this, unlike horns, vintage, high priced goods, or videos, is a concept or a philosophy. The others are more tangible.

Ps: my previous post addressing why I think horns grew on this forum https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/how-hi-fi-has-become-a-standard-unto-itself.33565/post-746232

Ked,

it seems you are adding your perspective to my comments, not really countering them, if i'm reading you correctly.

my overall point was not even the clarity of the subject matter of the disputes, more that some of them (the righteousness of the dogma) have put a damper on a segment of posters feeling the benevolent support to share. get in line, or put a cork in it.

my post was a reaction to Peter's lament wanting more system sharing; ironic that his righteousness was a significant component of the restriction he was lamenting. soap boxes are not without consequences.

we have choices how to present out perspectives. and it's not always easy to not present our perspective in terms of winners and losers....it can be hard. some prefer good dust ups. not me. sometimes talking about preferring something has inferences which cannot be helped. and those we have to live with. but where we take it from there matters.

for myself, i'm not an 'anti' guy. i spend little effort about what i don't like (at least consciously try to avoid it)......negativity is not fun for me. i'm am mostly negative about negativity though.

if a significant segment of the members actively seek to marginalize non-horn, non-vintage, non-video members then that's a different forum than one i want.

oh, and btw, Happy Mother's Day everyone.

 

[bonzo75]

Ked,

it seems you are adding your perspective to my comments, not really countering them, if i'm reading you correctly.

my overall point was not even the clarity of the subject matter of the disputes, more that some of them (the righteousness of the dogma) have put a damper on a segment of posters feeling the benevolent support to share. get in line, or put a cork in it.

my post was a reaction to Peter's lament wanting more system sharing; ironic that his righteousness was a significant component of the restriction he was lamenting. soap boxes are not without consequences.

we have choices how to present out perspectives. and it's not always easy to not present our perspective in terms of winners and losers....it can be hard. some prefer good dust ups. not me. sometimes talking about preferring something has inferences which cannot be helped. and those we have to live with. but where we take it from there matters.

for myself, i'm not an 'anti' guy. i spend little effort about what i don't like (at least consciously try to avoid it)......negativity is not fun for me. i'm am mostly negative about negativity though.

if a significant segment of the members actively seek to marginalize non-horn, non-vintage, non-video members then that's a different forum than one i want.

oh, and btw, Happy Mother's Day everyone.

I agree with all that. I added my perspective to see from the other side of the horn video perspective, because the anti-brigade (which I agree you are not a part of) would have leapt at your comments

Btw, Peter was righteous with Magico Pass as well. That's being Peter.

Personally on system sharing I think the audiogon format suited that, while the WBF format of latest activity as well as excellent search function allows nicely for sharing thoughts across topics. Going through Mike Lavigne's system thread and changes across 40 years would confuse many, but your thoughts on digital, analog, isolation, room set up etc are often quickly accessible here.

 

[Lee]

Clearly you don’t know much about measurements, and I never said they tell you everything about the sound of a system, and aren’t you showing some conceit with your Topping comment , and I am no fan of DCS sound

let’s see what measurements can tell you

1. If a product is defective
2. If they meet the manufacturers specifications such as power output and sensitivity
3. Odd impedances in speakers requiring attention to amplifier choice
4. Quality control, such as speaker matching
5. Jitter and noise, showing poor design
6. Input and output impedance for relationship between devices
7.frequency aberrations of significance

none of this features in TAS but does in Stereophile

I actually do know a bit about measurements and its why I recognize the need for subjective evaluation to accompany them. Back in the mid-90s when 24/96 recordings were just starting to come out, I was recording a lot of string ensembles. Measurements at the time suggested that a code 16/44 ADC could capture violin tone. However, we noticed the the "sweetness" of a violin only came through when we recorded in 24/96. We noticed this was the case no matter what ADC or DAC we used in the recording or playback.

Another example is jitter. In the 90s, the late great Julian Dunn published a very well-regarded paper suggesting that the human ear could only hear to hundreds of nanoseconds of jitter. We later realized that even single digit range of picosecond jitter can be heard. Remarkably this exists well into our 70s. Some scientists think it is baked in as part of our "flight or fight" survival skills.

So measurements are helpful when they are paired with subjective evaluation. And in the second case, having measurements of one aspect of sound like jitter can be helpful but the connection to how we hear it is ever evolving. In my opinion both measurement and critical listening are simply tools for exploring better and better ways to enjoy music more richly.

 

[Lee]

It’s actually , when you get into it, suprising how old most of the technology is

i mean ladder dacs go back to the 80s, with MSB technology proclaiming
the ring dac dates to late 90s, not exactly new, and is it relevant with modern FPGA

it’s interesting how much Lee is pushing the Apex dac tech with its release UPCOMING !

nice segue, but its like a ‘the Birds” film of audio equipment , there is so much equipment peddling, like a crow pecking a cows eyes; I am beginning to think the “ natural sound movement” has struck a chord ( pun unfortunate but also kind of funny) that not all is not rosy in the “technically advanced camp” that Lee is pushing and lecturing us on high from his mighty TAS pulpit ( ps they don’t do measurements ….could that be none of them could actually interpret them, or might expose their first Tier components inadequacy ?…… conspiracy, conspiracies, a horse for my conspiracies)

This relates to my second example around jitter. Yes, much of the foundation of audio involves some core principles, but a good bit of the technological progress I talk about is about improving on past success. Better sound, like other technology, can move in both leaps and increments. The new Ring DAC improvements are from the same team that developed the earlier technology but they now have upgraded parts and circuit design to get more out of the Ring DAC.

Likewise, one could claim that Magico's new midrange driver is based on old cone driver technology. Yes, however there have been great leaps in how accurate those drivers are. This seems to be why the A5 is such a great speaker.

Another example is the Audio Research Ref 160 S. They made some changes in the circuit when they designed the newer amp based on what they learned from the mono amps. Also, the combined chassis approach shortened some signal paths. They just announced the Ref 320M on our Facebook channel during Axpona and I am betting they are incorporating some new ideas in the new 320 amp.

What really matters is the improved sound quality at the end of the day. Core principles, parts improvements, circuit improvements, improved methods of manufacture...all make a difference.

 

[Lee]

Ked,

it seems you are adding your perspective to my comments, not really countering them, if i'm reading you correctly.

my overall point was not even the clarity of the subject matter of the disputes, more that some of them (the righteousness of the dogma) have put a damper on a segment of posters feeling the benevolent support to share. get in line, or put a cork in it.

my post was a reaction to Peter's lament wanting more system sharing; ironic that his righteousness was a significant component of the restriction he was lamenting. soap boxes are not without consequences.

we have choices how to present out perspectives. and it's not always easy to not present our perspective in terms of winners and losers....it can be hard. some prefer good dust ups. not me. sometimes talking about preferring something has inferences which cannot be helped. and those we have to live with. but where we take it from there matters.

for myself, i'm not an 'anti' guy. i spend little effort about what i don't like (at least consciously try to avoid it)......negativity is not fun for me. i'm am mostly negative about negativity though.

if a significant segment of the members actively seek to marginalize non-horn, non-vintage, non-video members then that's a different forum than one i want.

oh, and btw, Happy Mother's Day everyone.

Seems to me that there are many good paths to get great sound. Maybe we could learn more as a group if we thought more in terms of sharing experiences with whatever path we are on. The cone folks could learn from the horn folks and vice versa.

On digital, maybe if we had the shared perspective of understanding of what the Lampi, dCS, MSB, and Wadax people like about their sound, we might learn more about better ways to produce good digital sound. Maybe at the least, we would understand the differences better and one person might say, "hmm...that Lampi sound characteristic seems right up my alley, maybe I should audition it for my next DAC."

Mike, even on your very expensive Wadax, we might learn something unique about the sound that is intriguing and when Wadax introduces a more affordable DAC, add that to our audition list.

I'm maybe too optimistic, but what I want in a forum is to learn more about audio technology, room setup, listening, and music. At the end of the day, the horn guys may still be horn guys but perhaps we will have a richer understanding of those of us with a different perspective.

 

[Al M.]

Ked,

it seems you are adding your perspective to my comments, not really countering them, if i'm reading you correctly.

my overall point was not even the clarity of the subject matter of the disputes, more that some of them (the righteousness of the dogma) have put a damper on a segment of posters feeling the benevolent support to share. get in line, or put a cork in it.

my post was a reaction to Peter's lament wanting more system sharing; ironic that his righteousness was a significant component of the restriction he was lamenting. soap boxes are not without consequences.

we have choices how to present out perspectives. and it's not always easy to not present our perspective in terms of winners and losers....it can be hard. some prefer good dust ups. not me. sometimes talking about preferring something has inferences which cannot be helped. and those we have to live with. but where we take it from there matters.

for myself, i'm not an 'anti' guy. i spend little effort about what i don't like (at least consciously try to avoid it)......negativity is not fun for me. i'm am mostly negative about negativity though.

if a significant segment of the members actively seek to marginalize non-horn, non-vintage, non-video members then that's a different forum than one i want.

oh, and btw, Happy Mother's Day everyone.

Yes, the forum becomes off-putting and uninteresting.

 

[Al M.]

I agree with all that.

Ked, if you really would agree with Mike, you would write your posts with a different tone.

 

[bonzo75]

Ked, if you really would agree with Mike, you would write your posts with a different tone.

Actually, I was thinking of you you know why

 

[fbhifi]

Looks like the moderator took a coffee break…..

 

[bonzo75]

I can't view this video in London. What is it, maybe I can look up on YouTube

 

[cal3713]

I can't view this video in London. What is it, maybe I can look up on YouTube

You really missed out on the thread action by not being able to view it. Youtube Title: Twin baby girls fight over pacifier.

 

[morricab]

Tang will then buy M9 just to be member of both forums. And then we can report on one forum that we prefer the system belonging to the other forum based on his videos

Would that mean then you can’t be in either forum…

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Seems to me that there are many good paths to get great sound. Maybe we could learn more as a group if we thought more in terms of sharing experiences with whatever path we are on. The cone folks could learn from the horn folks and vice versa.

MAD.......i think either we have respect, or demand for a winner. who's got more stomach for a fight?

personally on this specific subject, as a cone and box guy, i want to know more about horns. hear them, know them. but don't kick me in the nuts while i'm doing it. let me be enjoying my cones and boxes while i ogle horns. act like you have class even if you don't. it's not really so hard.

On digital, maybe if we had the shared perspective of understanding of what the Lampi, dCS, MSB, and Wadax people like about their sound, we might learn more about better ways to produce good digital sound. Maybe at the least, we would understand the differences better and one person might say, "hmm...that Lampi sound characteristic seems right up my alley, maybe I should audition it for my next DAC."

Mike, even on your very expensive Wadax, we might learn something unique about the sound that is intriguing and when Wadax introduces a more affordable DAC, add that to our audition list.

i posted a few times about what i considered the implications of the Wadax design were for digital music reproduction going forward. so i did that. but then i have to let that either go forward on it's own merits or let it be there to be accessed as it's relevant. topics run their course.

I'm maybe too optimistic, but what I want in a forum is to learn more about audio technology, room setup, listening, and music. At the end of the day, the horn guys may still be horn guys but perhaps we will have a richer understanding of those of us with a different perspective.

for that stuff to happen the forum needs some harmony, and get away from going right to what we don't agree on at every opportunity. the human condition is hard to resist. and certainly some debates are enjoyable and good to have. just a little more respect, and the forum can maintain a balance and everyone can be ok pretty much.

 

[PeterA]

my overall point was not even the clarity of the subject matter of the disputes, more that some of them (the righteousness of the dogma) have put a damper on a segment of posters feeling the benevolent support to share. get in line, or put a cork in it.

my post was a reaction to Peter's lament wanting more system sharing; ironic that his righteousness was a significant component of the restriction he was lamenting. soap boxes are not without consequences.

The irony, Mike, is that the title of my system thread is a direct response to the "righteousness of the dogma" that I read on all the blatant brand ambassador threads and from the audio establishment approach that leads to a very different sound. Last May, on my own system thread, you told me to own it and to stop trying to please everyone. Here you have it. I am adding my alternative to the discussion while lacking your skills at diplomacy.

 

[awsmone]

The irony, Mike, is that the title of my system thread is a direct response to the "righteousness of the dogma" that I read on all the blatant brand ambassador threads and from the audio establishment approach that leads to a very different sound. Last May, on my own system thread, you told me to own it and to stop trying to please everyone. Here you have it. I am adding my alternative to the discussion while lacking your skills at diplomacy.

We have to admit, whether we like the horn sound or not, there has been something about the direction the industry took in the past, where Peter’s speakers, are so good, yet an extremely old design, this suggests to me , that we took a wrong turn somewhere in the past , possibly the first transistors which moved the industry towards compactness , which although desirable , the trade off was inferior sound, the industry has taken a long time to reattain

the same could be said for early digital, where the very name “compact” was the seller, and it was only a few lonely voices that kept saying but but but, the lps sound better

 

[Mike Lavigne]

We have to admit, whether we like the horn sound or not, there has been something about the direction the industry took in the past, where Peter’s speakers, are so good, yet an extremely old design, this suggests to me , that we took a wrong turn somewhere in the past , possibly the first transistors which moved the industry towards compactness , which although desirable , the trade off was inferior sound, the industry has taken a long time to reattain

the same could be said for early digital, where the very name “compact” was the seller, and it was only a few lonely voices that kept saying but but but, the lps sound better

"a wrong turn".....ok, i guess the forum has to be in that space and process it. right and wrong. too bad.