State-of-the-Art Digital

[Al M.]

Thanks for this thorough report - besides it is always nice to read nice things about gear we appreciate. Can you give us more details about signal and power cables? I can't imagine what cables would be recommended for such a non-orthodox system!

It is great that Giulini and the Vienna Philharmonic are particularly well served by quality Deutch Gramophone recordings either in LP or digital, the Bruckner 9th you recommended is really fabulous. I would be really happy to get the recordings of the box "Giulini in Viena" in 96/24.

And yes, I also have found that the clock is mandatory in Vivaldi systems.

You're welcome, Francisco. Nice to hear you agree on the recording. Unfortunately, I did not gather much information on the cables. Speaker cables were MIT.

 

[ack]

Yes, now can you imagine if they ever released an SV Dac.

It would certainly be named in this "Best of" Digital Thread.

Also, I'd name the Berkeley Reference DAC 3

@Al M. @ack

Have you heard the new Ref 3 at Goodwin's ? If so, curious on your thoughts.

It's OK. More, under my system thread, where I had the Ref3 and Johnson's 4000SV a couple of times in my system

 

[ack]

The sound with the Nagra preamp was extraordinary, but I can’t contrast it with the Spectral since I haven’t heard the system since the preamps were swapped.

I had previously heard the full Nagra stack at Goodwin’s (HD amps, pre, and DAC) with the “lesser” Cygnus, and the sound seemed a bit “polite”.

But there are too many variables to reach a firm conclusion. I have heard all the components including the Vivaldi stack in lots of other contexts / speakers, but it’s safe to say that I have never heard sound as good as what I heard with the Lyras. So, my conclusion from the audition was that while the DAC and the electronics are obviously outstanding, it was the Lyras that were exceptional.

I am curious what Al heard and what he liked, especially given that we all heard the full Vivaldi 2.0 stack during the Magico S7 demo years ago, where I was left unimpressed by the euphonic though utterly pleasing sound; or the full Vivaldi 2.0 stack with the Magico M3s driven by the Spectral 30SV and 500AR amps, which I have heard a number of times and was outclassed by the Spectral 4000SV player that rendered a more believable presentation to my ears. So... really curious how this digital stack sounds now through the Lyras and Nagra. More than that, we all heard the full digital and tape Nagra HD stack with the Cygnus(?) a couple of months ago, and were all utterly unimpressed, to the point that I branded it the worst sound in decades.

 

[bonzo75]

lol.

you need to keep up with mine.

You are replying to older ones

 

[Al M.]

I am curious what Al heard and what he liked, especially given that we all heard the full Vivaldi 2.0 stack during the Magico S7 demo years ago, where I was left unimpressed by the euphonic though utterly pleasing sound; or the full Vivaldi 2.0 stack with the Magico M3s driven by the Spectral 30SV and 500AR amps, which I have heard a number of times and was outclassed by the Spectral 4000SV player that rendered a more believable presentation to my ears. So... really curious how this digital stack sounds now through the Lyras and Nagra. More than that, we all heard the full digital and tape Nagra HD stack with the Cygnus(?) a couple of months ago, and were all utterly unimpressed, to the point that I branded it the worst sound in decades.

Yes, it's nothing like that last session.

 

[ack]

Yes, it's nothing like that last session.

Hmmm.... sure, nothing like the last session, but the Vivaldi 2.0's character is well known to me over the years. A little hard to believe what you wrote, at least as it applies to faithfulness to the recording, which I value the most. Said otherwise, I throw the dCS and many others to the make-digital-sound-artifically-good bucket

 

[Al M.]

Hmmm.... sure, nothing like the last session, but the Vivaldi 2.0's character is well known to me over the years. A little hard to believe what you wrote, at least as it applies to faithfulness to the recording, which I value the most. Said otherwise, I throw the dCS and many others to the make-digital-sound-artifically-good bucket

Ok, let me be brief: euphonic character shows itself easily in thickening up of female voices, in one example according to your own standards. I did not hear that.

 

[ack]

Ok, let me be brief: euphonic character shows itself easily in thickening up of female voices, in one example according to your own standards. I did not hear that.

Now that is really curious. I heard this euphonic character in madfloyd's system as well, before he sold his Vivaldi 2.0 DAC

 

[morricab]

I don't care which reputation "neutral" has earned. Neutral means just that, neutral. Of course, nobody knows what absolute neutrality really would mean, but nonetheless it is an ideal.

This is why I pursue a closest approach to live, in amplified acoustic music because that is something I can hear and understand because making a comparison (albeit not usually direct) to something real is better than to an abstract term like “neutral”.

 

[han_n]

It's kind of surprising that so few people consider the CH Precision C1(HD upgrade) + D1(HD upgrade) + X1 + T1 combination here. I'm even not talking about the mono version of this stack. I have not heard many of the other DAC's mentioned here, but to me the above CH Precision combination is able to perform in such a way as to make me happy each time I'm listening. (okay, I don't have the T1 yet, but have heard the T1 before, that's why the T1 will be ordered soon). Again, it's absolutely stunning.....just include in your comparison and you will find out.

 

[caesar]

Caesar, I admire your enthusiasm and the yearning to discover some dark conspiracy however much of your efforts are severely misguided.
First people have a tendency to work with others they know at shows so they can help make the high costs more affordable.
For example and I will speak for Bending Wave so I am telling you the dark deep truth LOL
Axpona 2020 our room cost is ( rounded off numbers) 16000.00 plus internet access 600.
Depending on what we ship to the show freight and storage costs can amount to over 6000.00.
Last year we served Coffee and Bagels along with beer, soda, water and pizza and spent close to 5000.
We gave away T Shirts - 1500.
Of course me and my crew had to get to Chicago, sleep ,eat and travel back. This was at a cost of around 2000 a day for 5 days.
Got the picture?
So when we work with other manufacturers we are trying to limit the blood letting. This of course is only one show!!!
I have worked with CH Precision in the previous few events since I know them well, own their gear and have a relationship with them. We have brought in an analog source since people like to hear records and they have paid part of the room as well.

This year we won't be working with the same people because it is time to show our speakers with something else. It does not mean anything deep or dark just that I wanted to show our speakers with new gear and different technologies. I spoke to a few people I know and respect their gear to see if they wanted to work with us. This is the same for most manufacturers and distributors. If they have a long standing track record they may use the same ones over and over. THese are more business decisions then just a sound only choice. It does NOT mean that they don't like or enjoy another brand but rather they need to show and afford the space they are using and give the listeners another perspective, Its not sinister!!!!!!

We this year will be showing with VTL, WADAX, and BASIS Turntables. I am excited to work with them all and am thrilled that they want to show with us. I am looking forward to producing some great sound in the same room we had last year. These are big projects with short time schedules to get everything there and in pace and set up to try to make in sound what takes a lot longer in the real world in much better rooms.

Last thing Audio has a lot of vague terms that are tossed around like frisbees and sorry to say most have lost there meaning.
I suggest you go back and read the absolute sound from the beginning to HP's demise as he set forth the language and did his best to explain what all these terms meant. Both he and J. Gordon Holt truly developed a language to try to express what they were hearing.
Anyone's opinion is good enough for them but that does not mean that is correct.
One may think the earth is flat.
One may believe in God.
One may wait for Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny.
One may think that their system is neutral.


Happy Holidays

HI Elliot,
I appreciate you taking the time to post this message. And I am always on the side of the entrepreneur, so I empathize with your efforts to build a successful business!

As I mentioned in the Wilson Marketing thread, high end audio is prone to bandwagon effects. I know so many people who heard and liked a speaker other than wilson, but in the end came back and bought wilson for the same reasons that people go to see Star Wars over a possibly better movie.

I also applaud you for mixing it up with different brands at different shows. I hope you get a great return on your investment. I actually stopped going to RMAF because it was the same layout on the same floor, every year. How many times can one hear focal with soulution and focal with vac? And I am not the only one. I briefly stopped by RMAF this past year, and the convention hall area of the show had less life than Chernobyl.

Variety is key to success. Best of luck at Axpona and best of luck with your brands! I hope you succeed!

 

[caesar]

Caesar: Thank you for your considered post which I understand and accept, albeit not agree with all of it from a personal point of view.

By the way, my earlier post should have been clearer in defining my understanding of neutral as being “nothing added” and “nothing taken away”.

My image at the time, which I avoided using as I don’t like to see issues inflamed, was one of
1. dCS having a testing room where 50 dCS Vivaldis were connected in alternate series with 50 dCS contra-Vivaldis with the dCS engineers showing that the output, after all these iterations, was identical to the input; and
2. MSB having an office with MSB marketeers sitting around twirling various dials until eveyone could agree that the electronics voicing was correct.

More seriously, I accept your prognosis that some hifi enthusiasts do like the equipment experience and the regular changing thereof as part of the hobby of music listening. And getting to something which delights them.

Others prefer the equipment involvement to be minimal but accept that the most significant variants in that chain are, in order of priority

1. the person’s mood, their ears, and the music and recording choice; followed by
2. the room and the speakers; followed by
3. the electronics, whether traditional equipment or cables or mains or vibration effects;

and that they concentrate on (1) and (2) to a greater extent than (3). And this delights them.

You could argue that the former group has complete freedom to act whereas the latter group imposes disciplines which they regard as fundamental to the “honesty” of (a slice of) the reproduction chain.

dCS may well be in this latter group. I suspect if we wrote to dCS and asked if they “voiced” their electronic gear, their reply would be clear.

Your earlier post suggests that MSB and Totaldac do voice their electronic gear, though I doubt you would get their written confirmation that they do this - and with what departure from “nothing added” and “nothing taken away” they seek to achieve!

This is an insoluble issue and I don’t wish to extend the debate unnecessarily.

Hi Ian,
I appreciate the thoughtful reply. My take on voicing is that, generally speaking, the designers build something and listen. The more they like it, the closer it is to a product they will take to market.



Per the MSB interview, at 2:37 or so, the guy says"...no matter how much math and science there is, it's still an art-form to interpret the digital binary data...." And that's my point.

As for everything else, as they say, there is no accounting for taste. Many things are preferred for seemingly random reasons. All we can do is share our experiences, using specific language and include TONS OF COMPARISONS so we don't talk past each other. All the best to you!

 

[CKKeung]

It's kind of surprising that so few people consider the CH Precision C1(HD upgrade) + D1(HD upgrade) + X1 + T1 combination here. I'm even not talking about the mono version of this stack. I have not heard many of the other DAC's mentioned here, but to me the above CH Precision combination is able to perform in such a way as to make me happy each time I'm listening. (okay, I don't have the T1 yet, but have heard the T1 before, that's why the T1 will be ordered soon). Again, it's absolutely stunning.....just include in your comparison and you will find out.

I like the C1.1(HD digital input card) with the new ethernet card + X1 very much too!
And after adding the T1, this combo is heavenly!

 

[Al M.]

As I mentioned in the Wilson Marketing thread, high end audio is prone to bandwagon effects. I know so many people who heard and liked a speaker other than wilson, but in the end came back and bought wilson for the same reasons that people go to see Star Wars over a possibly better movie.

Caesar, I am not sure where your obsession with Wilson comes from. I cannot much speak to the sound quality, but I have heard good things about it, and one or two promising demos myself. But let me ask you, do you honestly think that more than 20 % of forum members have Wilsons? And don't you think that even 20 % might be too high a number?

As for myself, I have speakers from a relatively obscure brand, Reference 3A. I honestly don't care about what "everybody has", I care about bang for the buck. And that I got, for sure. The performance to price ratio of my speakers (Reflector monitors) is pretty ridiculous, in a good way.

 

[caesar]

Caesar, I am not sure where your obsession with Wilson comes from. I cannot much speak to the sound quality, but I have heard good things about it, and one or two promising demos myself. But let me ask you, do you honestly think that more than 20 % of forum members have Wilsons? And don't you think that even 20 % might be too high a number?

As for myself, I have speakers from a relatively obscure brand, Reference 3A. I honestly don't care about what "everybody has", I care about bang for the buck. And that I got, for sure. The performance to price ratio of my speakers (Reflector monitors) is pretty ridiculous, in a good way.

I'm not talking about forum members, per se. Forum members are more engaged than the average audio fan. But again, few forum members have heard every top brand in an optimized setting... so they are not acting independently either -social forces dominate and determine what is "best" more than engineering...

Personally, I happen to think that magnepans 30.7 are better than any box speaker out there on the planet. They are only $30K, but can't draw flies.

But at the "high end", say $30K+, a small group dominates - wilson, magico, and sonus fiber (focal used to be there but seems to have abandoned innovation of high end models). Outstanding companies like Avantangarde, soundlab, dynaudio, avalon, eggleston, british wilsons, etc., probably together sell in a year what wilson audio sells in a month due to bandwagon effects.

 

[Al M.]

I'm not talking about forum members, per se. Forum members are more engaged than the average audio fan. But again, few forum members have heard every top brand in an optimized setting... so they are not acting independently either -social forces dominate and determine what is "best" more than engineering...

Few people have heard a lot outside show settings, which don't count unless the sound is really great, something not frequently achievable at shows, for various reasons.

Personally, I happen to think that magnepans 30.7 are better than any box speaker out there on the planet. They are only $30K, but can't draw flies.

Can't speak to the sound, but you seem to need a very large room that few people have. The speakers may be cheap (in high end terms), but the rooms that they apparently demand are not, unless you live in particularly affordable parts of the country in terms of housing. In the Greater Boston area where I live, forget it.

But at the "high end", say $30K+, a small group dominates - wilson, magico, and sonus fiber (focal used to be there but seems to have abandoned innovation of high end models). Outstanding companies like Avantangarde, soundlab, dynaudio, avalon, eggleston, british wilsons, etc., probably together sell in a year what wilson audio sells in a month due to bandwagon effects.

What about Rockport? They seem to be pretty popular.

 

[caesar]

Al,
One additional thing. Most reviewers at Stereophile use Wilson / dcs type systems as their references. TAS guys love their Magicos. But the rest of us are living in dhimmitude to Wilson and Magico, and the brands that match those.

For example, stereophile reviewers Victor jason Sirinius has slammed excellent brands like audio net (works great with YG) and Bricasti because they don't work with his wilsons. He also slammed the Aqua Fina DAC because he likes dcs as best. Those small companies were seriously f*cked over! Audio net almost went belly up, and I doubt anyone will seriously take Bricasti amps.

The TAS guys seem to like Soulution to Consoulayion amps because of better bass synergy of Soulution with Magico. Consoulation gets the consolation prize...

So all of this effects innovation and the products we get to see...

 

[caesar]

Few people have heard a lot outside show settings, which don't count unless the sound is really great, something not frequently achievable at shows, for various reasons.



Can't speak to the sound, but you seem to need a very large room that few people have. The speakers may be cheap (in high end terms), but the rooms that they apparently demand are not, unless you live in particularly affordable parts of the country in terms of housing. In the Greater Boston area where I live, forget it.



What about Rockport? They seem to be pretty popular.

Sure. Real estate arguments make sense... Yet someone still needs a dedicated room to have things sound AWESOME.

As for Rockports, I would lump Rockports with the those others like Dynaudio, Eggleston, etc.. They are not in the top tier because unless someone is very confident of their taste, and is not concerned with the resale value, or is buying the last speaker in their life, they may listen to a Rockport, will in most cases buy the Wilson.

 

[caesar]

Happy New Year Guys! Can't be anti-social any longer - time for a drink!

 

[Al M.]

Sure. Real estate arguments make sense... Yet someone still needs a dedicated room to have things sound AWESOME.

Happy New Year!

I do have a dedicated room, and the system sounds awesome, but it's not big enough for a large speaker. Dimensions 24 x 12 x 8.5 feet (13.5 feet wide at small window bay). I already got lucky since usually you would get such a size room in my neighborhood only in houses almost double the price I paid, which already was a high one (I had been house hunting for quite some time, so I knew). Sure, I might get a bigger room in a house "out in the woods" that I might be able to afford, but I am just not interested in a daily commute to work of 45 min or longer. I value quality of life.