State-of-the-Art Digital

[Mdp632]

Al,
One additional thing. Most reviewers at Stereophile use Wilson / dcs type systems as their references. TAS guys love their Magicos. But the rest of us are living in dhimmitude to Wilson and Magico, and the brands that match those.

For example, stereophile reviewers Victor jason Sirinius has slammed excellent brands like audio net (works great with YG) and Bricasti because they don't work with his wilsons. He also slammed the Aqua Fina DAC because he likes dcs as best. Those small companies were seriously f*cked over! Audio net almost went belly up, and I doubt anyone will seriously take Bricasti amps.

The TAS guys seem to like Soulution to Consoulayion amps because of better bass synergy of Soulution with Magico. Consoulation gets the consolation prize...

So all of this effects innovation and the products we get to see...

@caesar Some but not all of these "reviewers" think Product A (example)is so great because they have a financial incentive to say so. If you were being offered a product at a substantial or discount or perhaps could have a product on loan for years plus. Of course there could be some bias there.

Yes, some of the brands they review and indeed great but, again this hobby is so subjective.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

@caesar Some but not all of these "reviewers" think Product A (example)is so great because they have a financial incentive to say so. If you were being offered a product at a substantial or discount or perhaps could have a product on loan for years plus. Of course there could be some bias there.

Yes, some of the brands they review and indeed great but, again this hobby is so subjective.

do we really need to go down this whole "dirty" reviewer road all the damn time?

if reviewers can get accommodation pricing on any brand they choose, then that opportunity for any particular brand should not be a factor. all brands are equally discount accessible. is this concept so difficult to understand? which does not mean you like that process, but if we want to have gear reviewed it comes along for the ride.

sigh.

Happy New Year!

 

[caesar]

@caesar Some but not all of these "reviewers" think Product A (example)is so great because they have a financial incentive to say so. If you were being offered a product at a substantial or discount or perhaps could have a product on loan for years plus. Of course there could be some bias there.

Yes, some of the brands they review and indeed great but, again this hobby is so subjective.

Not all reviewers are "dirty" - but most are mis-incentivized.

They just preach their taste, helping the brands they like, while sucking out the oxygen from others they have ignored.

And when they don't compare gear and just hype things up (unethically abusing their "authority status), they are wasting people's precious time and money, while holding up the popular incumbents.

Not the best thing for innovation in the industry and it creates the "f*ck the fan" culture we have.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Caesar, keep at it. You speak for SO many. I remember when I felt directed to Wilson in the 90s like I was directed to Linn. It requires the ability to step aside, look at the whole landscape, and reconsider. Up there in consumer choice terms as questioning religion as a teenager.

 

[Al M.]

Do you really think reviews are that influential? I have only bought two items based on just reviews, my Yggdrasil DAC and Reference 3A MM DeCapo BE speakers. Both were low risk propositions, given their moderate price and return policy. I didn't go by single reviews, but by consistency of findings across multiple reviews. My current Reference 3A Reflector speakers I bought based on what I already had with the lower model monitors. My expensive amplification was all auditioned, as were cables and CD transport. I bought the subs primarily based on recommendation from a trusted friend, and reviews only supported that recommendation.

My previous system was fully auditioned prior to purchase.

 

[bonzo75]

Do you really think reviews are that influential? I have only bought two items based on reviews only, my Yggdrasil DAC and Reference 3A MM DeCapo BE speakers. Both were low risk propositions, given their moderate price and return policy. I didn't go by single reviews, but by consistency of findings across multiple reviews. My current Reference 3A Reflector speakers I bought based on what I already had with the lower model monitors. My expensive amplification was all auditioned, as were cables and CD transport.

Many convince themselves they made a smart choice after selecting based on reviews. Also what is low risk to you might be high risk to someone else with a different budget, and for some here, vivaldi is low risk not much cost

 

[spiritofmusic]

The only reviews I read on what I've bought are those reviews I've written here Lol.

I just WISH that I could give myself accommodation pricing.

 

[Al M.]

Many convince themselves they made a smart choice after selecting based on reviews.

True. An audiophile acquaintance back in the day made a bad speaker choice, as it was mismatched with his low wattage amps. He then tried to convince himself that he liked the sound.

Also what is low risk to you might be high risk to someone else with a different budget, and for some here, vivaldi is low risk not much cost

Also true.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

reviews are data points; like any other. and their weight varies, like any other data point.

some reviewers with reviews of certain types of products do carry more weight. and certain brands lose review weight based on the advertising presence.

it's just life going on. same with food and movies. we don't all eat every meal at McD's or drink Coke at every meal. but McD's or Coke are not being bad.

nothing nefarious or deep state about it.

 

[caesar]

Surely, distortion artifacts caused by current limitation sound horrible. As well as some analytical SS.



I feel compelled to agree with you. But most people will consider what appeals to their senses the be the neutral.



IMHO Wilson signature is just a particular one like many others. For me current VTLs (7.5mk3 and Siegfried II ) are excessively neutral - a large difference to the preceding generation.
What is your opinion on the latest D'Agostino Momemtum's?



Can you share full details about the dCS models and your systems? Otherwise your advise lacks any support.

Hi Microstrip,
Interesting points - haven't thought of things like that. And , overall, wise contributions to the forum!

The systems I tried dCS player in were by Zu Druid 5 - Audion Golden Night and bi-amped MBL 101, driven by Symphonic Line Krafts and CAT preamp. Unfortunately, it sounded completely un-engaging in both....Not "hang yourself from the ceiling" analytical like Berkely Ref DAC, but not something enjoyable to me. In my book, if a high-efficiency, transparent-to-emotion system like Zu can't work with dCS, it's not for many others also.

As far as amps, I have heard D'Agostino with Wilson and Magico. It's "good" in an audiophile way with Wilson, yet I understand from others whose taste I share is that Constellation is better with Wilson....

But D'agostino one of the better combinations that I heard with Magico. Yet I prefer Class A Gryphon with Magico much, much better. Other than CAT, I think Gryphon is the best amp for Magico that I have heard. I imagine Symphonic Line would be the cat's meow with Magico... (but I also happen to think that Symphonic Line is the best SS amps on the planet.)

But I don't take my preferences too seriously either...

 

[caesar]

reviews are data points; like any other. and their weight varies, like any other data point.

some reviewers with reviews of certain types of products do carry more weight. and certain brands lose review weight based on the advertising presence.

it's just life going on. same with food and movies. we don't all eat every meal at McD's or drink Coke at every meal. but McD's or Coke are not being bad.

nothing nefarious or deep state about it.

Like I said above, they are an "appeal to authority" influence technique. Sometimes it's abused, but not always. When people are confused by thousands of products and combinations, they reach to the so called "authorities'. In combination with other influence techniques like "social proof", one can have a "potent cocktail" of influence, and creates powerful incumbents in the industry.

 

[microstrip]

(...) Personally, I happen to think that magnepans 30.7 are better than any box speaker out there on the planet. They are only $30K, but can't draw flies.

Nice to know, Caesar. It helps a lot to know about your strong preferences. I respect the brand, appreciated a lot the magnepans I have owned and listened and feel they are great value for money, but must tell that I dislike the romance and nubelous aura created around the top models that no one seems to own.

But at the "high end", say $30K+, a small group dominates - wilson, magico, and sonus fiber (focal used to be there but seems to have abandoned innovation of high end models). Outstanding companies like Avantangarde, soundlab, dynaudio, avalon, eggleston, british wilsons, etc., probably together sell in a year what wilson audio sells in a month due to bandwagon effects.

As I do not have real numbers I can only say that your comment seems exaggerated. But looking at the models at $30k+ of each of these oustanding companies (except the etc. ...) I can easily find many valid reasons why most people will prefer the Wilson, Magico, Sonus Faber alternatives. BTW, except for the Avantgarde, I have owned or own models of all of them.

 

[Al M.]

Nice to know, Caesar. It helps a lot to know about your strong preferences.

Yes, if I'm not mistaken, Caesar seems to think all box speakers sound 'boxy'. Oh well.

 

[microstrip]

(...) As far as amps, I have heard D'Agostino with Wilson and Magico. It's "good" in an audiophile way with Wilson, yet I understand from others whose taste I share is that Constellation is better with Wilson....

I must say that on my experience it depends on model. The Constellation Hercules / Altair was in my opinion superior to the D'Agostino Momentum's in the XLF , but the Centaur/Virgo was not.

But D'agostino one of the better combinations that I heard with Magico. Yet I prefer Class A Gryphon with Magico much, much better. Other than CAT, I think Gryphon is the best amp for Magico that I have heard. I imagine Symphonic Line would be the cat's meow with Magico... (but I also happen to think that Symphonic Line is the best SS amps on the planet.)

But I don't take my preferences too seriously either...

My experience with Magico is much more limited, nice to learn they sound great with Gryphon.

 

[ack]

Happy New Year to all! Speaking of state-of-the-art digital, get this on the Myrios label

recorded live at Boston Symphony Hall; music, sound and performance to die for!

 

[microstrip]

Do you really think reviews are that influential? (...)

Reviews are influential because they are a significant part of the communication channels of high-end manufacturers. Product are presented to consumers with some detail in reviews. The market is filled with high quality interesting items and we do not have the time or conditions to listen to all of them. An well written review, or the well supported advice of someone I can trust will help me narrowing the possible choices, surely eliminating others simply by the fact I do not information on them.

I must admit that my choice of equipment is lead exclusively by my preference and interests, I do not have any intentions to be a patron or a benefactor in this hobby, or be in a crusade to reward those who should be considered the best ... But surely arrogant or unethical manufactures get a lot of negative bias, people who have built a reputation on honesty, trust and knowledge get a positive bias.

 

[IanG-UK]

i have only general info. The chipset is only used by him and not made for audio industry. The circuit designs from Lukasz tend to be unconventional and have unique twists. His constant tinkering is why his products improve so fast over time.

That would concern me. "His constant tinkering is why his products improve so fast over time" can be read as "Don't buy his early iterations because they are a lot worse than successor products over time". And money is presumably wasted.

 

[wisnon]

Wasted, when he has generous upgrade policies? To each his own. Cant please all the people all the time.

 

[Tuckia]

That would concern me. "His constant tinkering is why his products improve so fast over time" can be read as "Don't buy his early iterations because they are a lot worse than successor products over time". And money is presumably wasted.

It’s a matter of perspective. Design is an iterative process. Any designer or engineer who claims to have achieved optimization is either a fool, a salesman, or both.

I can appreciate commentary that Lampizator’s origins have been a flavored manipulation.or something semantically similar, but having made the journey from Golden Gate 1, to GG2, and now to Pacific, I can say that the rate of improvement has been steeper than most. I like where they are now and optimistic about where they are headed based on this rate of progress.

 

[caesar]

Do you really think reviews are that influential? I have only bought two items based on just reviews, my Yggdrasil DAC and Reference 3A MM DeCapo BE speakers. Both were low risk propositions, given their moderate price and return policy. I didn't go by single reviews, but by consistency of findings across multiple reviews. My current Reference 3A Reflector speakers I bought based on what I already had with the lower model monitors. My expensive amplification was all auditioned, as were cables and CD transport. I bought the subs primarily based on recommendation from a trusted friend, and reviews only supported that recommendation.

My previous system was fully auditioned prior to purchase.

Hi Al,

Yes, the reviewers are very influential. Obviously you are extremely engaged, knowledgeable, and passionate about the hobby, but most people are not like you.

There are thousands of products out there and confusion reigns; purchase paralysis sets in due to excessive choice. People that are less engaged in this hobby just don't have the knowledge, energy, patience, time and skill to winnow down the choices. During this type of scenario, most people - as part of human nature - look to authority figures to help them navigate the risks of spending a ton of money on gear.

And obviously, the more reviewers sounding off on a product, the more effective the authority influence technique is.

If you are curious about this and want to go into more depth, check out Cialdini's book called Influence, as he is the world's most renowned expert on the psychology of influence.