Even if you are enthusiastic, if you don't have access to say 10 or more DAC to build a realistic understanding of what they are capable of, you don't really have a valid opinion. I think forum members understand that.
State-of-the-Art Digital
- Thread starter Ron Resnick
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Even if you are enthusiastic, if you don't have access to say 10 or more DAC to build a realistic understanding of what they are capable of, you don't really have a valid opinion. I think forum members understand that.
Let's break some marketing concepts down analytically, really quickly from a high-level:
From a product standpoint, the MPD 8 is a DSD dac. DACs that up-calculate their signal to DSD, such as Playback Designs, EMM, the popular PS Audio dac, etc., soften and mush-up the sound to take away the dynamics and aliveness of the music. So in most systems today, which are highly inefficient box speakers, this lack of dynamics is a BIG negative, considering many of today's top DACs such as TotalDac and MSB are very musical with PCM. Obviously, system synergy is key, and the gentleman who mentioned this DAC, Chuck, runs his system with Boulder 3000 series amp, so Chuck is not starving for dynamics.
From a price standpoint, this is something like $25K, so there is not a large market for this, and whatever market there is, has converged to other brands (see more on bandwagon effects below)....
And how many dealers carry this product? What else do they carry? What brand do they favor/ feature in their top systems?
How many shows do Playback go to? And what systems do they partner with? MSB partners with Magico, to help draw those fans to expose them to MSB. Wislon is with dCS, and they always draw a large crowd...
I discussed the influence of "audio journalists" before, but again, people look to authority figures in a state of confusion...dCS had a huge reviewer blitz with their Bartok and Rossini DAcs , across many reviewers, in the last year, who didn't mention analytical tendencies of dCS is so many systems... But most reviewers just follow the herd , which further helps entrench the more successful brands....Does playback nurture relationships with audio journalists, especially open-minded ones?
Additionally, luxury and entertainment industries are bound to bandwagon effects... The bandwagon effect is where popular brands become even more popular as people gain knowledge of them from their friends, experienced influencers, dealers, online boards, show reports , “audio journalists “, etc. What this means is that people’s tastes converge on select few brands rather than be dispersed across the assortment of available offerings. We see this with popular music and movies all the time, and here we see MSB, dCS, TotalDac, and Lampizator as passionately discussed by the fans and owners and getting the sales in this upper price bracket (social proof influence force acting on us). There may be many excellent products out there, but they just don't get the oxygen.
I could go on and on, but the factors above - in combination - help answer your question of why some brands are popular while others suffer.
As with so much in audio, there seems to be a tube/SS divide in digital. I heard the Lampi units at audio shows and ruled them out because of the tubes. The DAC is on 24/7 and I want continuity of sound so no tubes for me. I don't know how the Lampis compare in SQ. I also wanted a great SACD/CD transport.
The PD8s (MPT8/MPD8) are designed such that the MPT8 is necessary if the MPD8 is to sound its very best. The Baetis Reference server and a Classe CDP300 (for DVD Audio) are connected to the MPT8 and there is a single PLINK connection between the MPT8 and MPD8. As I understand it, all digital conversions are done by the MPT8 so the MPD8 receives an already converted digital input for the best sound quality. If I did not want the transport, this design might have been an issue since it would have been superfluous capacity.
For my system, the Baetis Reference server has capacity that the Taiko lacks. It handles multi-channel and I have a 5.1 setup. It also has a universal disc drive that makes ripping almost any disc easy. It is connected by HDMI to a Marantz SSP for multi-channel. The HDMI lets me stream YouTube concerts.
According to the Playback Designs website FAQs, the design of the MPD8 makes ultra high end servers like the Taiko or even the Baetis unnecessary for the sound of 2 channel music -- any PC will do. That might bear confirming if my understanding is right.
The PD8s (MPT8/MPD8) are designed such that the MPT8 is necessary if the MPD8 is to sound its very best. The Baetis Reference server and a Classe CDP300 (for DVD Audio) are connected to the MPT8 and there is a single PLINK connection between the MPT8 and MPD8. As I understand it, all digital conversions are done by the MPT8 so the MPD8 receives an already converted digital input for the best sound quality. If I did not want the transport, this design might have been an issue since it would have been superfluous capacity.
For my system, the Baetis Reference server has capacity that the Taiko lacks. It handles multi-channel and I have a 5.1 setup. It also has a universal disc drive that makes ripping almost any disc easy. It is connected by HDMI to a Marantz SSP for multi-channel. The HDMI lets me stream YouTube concerts.
According to the Playback Designs website FAQs, the design of the MPD8 makes ultra high end servers like the Taiko or even the Baetis unnecessary for the sound of 2 channel music -- any PC will do. That might bear confirming if my understanding is right.
And...this is why I'd expect many here to have bought the MDP-8 by now. How can anyone who access to "10 or more DACs" justify dismissing Playback Designs without ever giving it a shot!?
Is the notion that FGPA DSD DACs "soften and mush-up the sound" widely held? Maybe this is why no one around here will risk having a preconceived notion challenged?
Fair enough, but how many audiophiles who hear and buy any number of the elite, sota DACs are completely unaware of Playback Designs? Do they sincerely need a dealer to lead the way? Or an audio journalist?! Will they be embarrassed to pass on dCS or MSB because they won't be able to show off the popular brands to friends?
But look, if the FPGA DSD DAC is perceived as inferior, then I can appreciate that rationale whether it's actually true or not.
Surely, a few of you will seek an audition and chime in.
I think the other DACs just get ignored, per the reasons in my post. Maybe excellent, but no one really bothers. They may audition the blockbuster and like it. Also one can get on an audio forum site get congratulated by dozens of forum members on your MSB/ dcS/ Lampizator, etc. So can stop the search then and there.
I agree and most , actually virtually no one, will ever have the opportunity to hear all of the top end DACS in one place, one system or their own system. Its just not practical or affordable. Let's be real!! No store can afford this anymore than they can afford every great anything. It is a total fantasy and a perfect recipe for failure.Let's break some marketing concepts down analytically, really quickly from a high-level:
From a product standpoint, the MPD 8 is a DSD dac. DACs that up-calculate their signal to DSD, such as Playback Designs, EMM, the popular PS Audio dac, etc., soften and mush-up the sound to take away the dynamics and aliveness of the music. So in most systems today, which are highly inefficient box speakers, this lack of dynamics is a BIG negative, considering many of today's top DACs such as TotalDac and MSB are very musical with PCM. Obviously, system synergy is key, and the gentleman who mentioned this DAC, Chuck, runs his system with Boulder 3000 series amp, so Chuck is not starving for dynamics.
From a price standpoint, this is something like $25K, so there is not a large market for this, and whatever market there is, has converged to other brands (see more on bandwagon effects below)....
And how many dealers carry this product? What else do they carry? What brand do they favor/ feature in their top systems?
How many shows do Playback go to? And what systems do they partner with? MSB partners with Magico, to help draw those fans to expose them to MSB. Wislon is with dCS, and they always draw a large crowd...
I discussed the influence of "audio journalists" before, but again, people look to authority figures in a state of confusion...dCS had a huge reviewer blitz with their Bartok and Rossini DAcs , across many reviewers, in the last year, who didn't mention analytical tendencies of dCS is so many systems... But most reviewers just follow the herd , which further helps entrench the more successful brands....Does playback nurture relationships with audio journalists, especially open-minded ones?
Additionally, luxury and entertainment industries are bound to bandwagon effects... The bandwagon effect is where popular brands become even more popular as people gain knowledge of them from their friends, experienced influencers, dealers, online boards, show reports , “audio journalists “, etc. What this means is that people’s tastes converge on select few brands rather than be dispersed across the assortment of available offerings. We see this with popular music and movies all the time, and here we see MSB, dCS, TotalDac, and Lampizator as passionately discussed by the fans and owners and getting the sales in this upper price bracket (social proof influence force acting on us). There may be many excellent products out there, but they just don't get the oxygen.
I could go on and on, but the factors above - in combination - help answer your question of why some brands are popular while others suffer.
I have heard many of the top of the line DACS with lot's of other excellent gear. This is why people buy what they hear and like what they buy. This is to be expected. My two best friends have the competition to mine and they booth love what they own. A SHOCKER? I think not.
These discussions are just opinions and total fantasy as it is not possible to do.
I have heard to date the Total Dac, The MSB Select 2 with Power supplies, the top DCS stack with clock, Wadax stack and others. I have heard them all in great systems but only one or two in a system I have done and know the other components. I made my choice and I believe its an amazing machine. Very few have heard it since there are only Two set up in the entire US like mine.
So how do you choose? A good question. For me reviews are only invitations to pay attention. The reviewers don't have much better opportunities to hear them all than you do. In fact MOST of the reviewers are Analog guys and don't give digital the same effort. Its just the way it is.
A DAC is a source and the source you want is a matter of what you are able to hear and what you can afford.
My friends and I have discussed having a shoot out and all of us said FUCK it its just to much work!!
Peace out! Stay safe and buy more audio
I think the other DACs just get ignored, per the reasons in my post. Maybe excellent, but no one really bothers. They may audition the blockbuster and like it. Also one can get on an audio forum site get congratulated by dozens of forum members on your MSB/ dcS/ Lampizator, etc. So can stop the search then and there.
Of course I was not congratulated on the purchase of my Schiit Yggdrasil Analog 2 DAC, because it is a DAC that nobody in the "high end" clique cares about since it is "too cheap" to be seriously considered
. After all, it's only $ 2,400, pocket change for some in this hobby.Yet while I didn't care about that, something much better happened: two audiophile friends of mine who either had an expensive dCS in their system or had auditioned it (next to other expensive DACs), both ended up buying the same Yggdrasil DAC after they had extensively heard it in their system, because they found it to be actually better sounding than the very expensive DACs that they had or had heard in their systems. Now I can hear my DAC in their systems too!
Ironically, in all three our respective systems the DAC feeds a preamp that is 5 to 10 times its price. Sonically, this makes complete sense once you have heard the natural sound, killer dynamics and stunningly high resolution of the DAC (in terms of timbral micro-detail, refinement of transients, separation of instruments).
Schiit put the money into the electronics, not the package (the DAC is also only available in silver, since an option of two colors inevitably would raise the price). The high sales (allowing them to buy components in bulk), as well as the model of online purchase only, make the pricing feasible for the company.
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Congrats, Al lol.
Your story has some parallel in my choice of Eera Tentation, invisible in the marketplace when I bought it 7 yrs ago, and invisible now.
On investigating it, I found out that none other than Albert Von Schweikert rated it over the usual suspects in 2010 at multiples of the price. And that in one group comparison after another, it came out on top.
And then on trial for this all to become apparent immediately.
It remains an unadulterated joy, and that joy just a bit more real seeing the prices for digital escalate.
And now as I consider streaming, I see the vying of likely fantastic dacs at the sub $7k price band, each of which I'm sure punch well above their weight, incl MHDT, Holo Springs, Schiit and Denafrips.
Indeed my favoured one here is the cheapest, but the buzz online is so overwheming, and backed up by fantastic feedback from an extremely fussy and experienced audiophile.
And now, back to the spendy stuff where the marketing slice alone of each SOTA dac would buy multiples of the dacs I consider more interesting.
Your story has some parallel in my choice of Eera Tentation, invisible in the marketplace when I bought it 7 yrs ago, and invisible now.
On investigating it, I found out that none other than Albert Von Schweikert rated it over the usual suspects in 2010 at multiples of the price. And that in one group comparison after another, it came out on top.
And then on trial for this all to become apparent immediately.
It remains an unadulterated joy, and that joy just a bit more real seeing the prices for digital escalate.
And now as I consider streaming, I see the vying of likely fantastic dacs at the sub $7k price band, each of which I'm sure punch well above their weight, incl MHDT, Holo Springs, Schiit and Denafrips.
Indeed my favoured one here is the cheapest, but the buzz online is so overwheming, and backed up by fantastic feedback from an extremely fussy and experienced audiophile.
And now, back to the spendy stuff where the marketing slice alone of each SOTA dac would buy multiples of the dacs I consider more interesting.
The Boulder 3000 series amp and YG Sonja XV speakers ruthlessly reveal any shortcomings in source gear. If there was mushiness, lack of dynamics or liveliness, I would know it instantly. There isn't any of that with the Playback Designs.From a product standpoint, the MPD 8 is a DSD dac. DACs that up-calculate their signal to DSD, such as Playback Designs, EMM, the popular PS Audio dac, etc., soften and mush-up the sound to take away the dynamics and aliveness of the music. So in most systems today, which are highly inefficient box speakers, this lack of dynamics is a BIG negative, considering many of today's top DACs such as TotalDac and MSB are very musical with PCM. Obviously, system synergy is key, and the gentleman who mentioned this DAC, Chuck, runs his system with Boulder 3000 series amp, so Chuck is not starving for dynamics.
There will always be components at various price points, particularly from ultra-boutique (small volume, direct sale, etc) operations, which garner little mass recognition. I likely have the only AVM Audio 6.2 Master Edition integrated amp in the US. And that's a huge business over in Germany. I'm also considering Linear Tube Audio's integrated amps. Won't see that name much. I had all Cary Audio electronics until recently. Most could not possibly care less, even back when Dennis Had was there.
Or? Or perhaps you simply enjoy mushiness!!!! Revel in it. LOL.
Sincerely though, is there only one way to handle PCM? Is it delta-sigma? Ok, so which oversampling implementation? Or is non-oversampling R2R the only way? How has this been determined? Who's to say that FPGM DSD DACs are inherently at a disadvantage for PCM? I can't understand where that's coming from, but perhaps it is a widely held view.
I have actually have had a good number of DACs in my systems, including PS Audio, Playback Designs 5, Nadac, and others. And one can definitely hear the difference b/w PCM DACs and the guys who up-calculate and convert everything to DSD. With dCS rossini you can select the calculation to DXD or DSD on the fly, and the differences are readily apparent. Interestingly, I found I like dCS better with DSD, because I found their DXD way too intellectualized and analytical even in my high-efficiency system.
But we all have different systems and different personal sensitivities to the sonic signatures that are out there...
True. Only the most self-confident guys go with the less-known gear. The majority jump on the bandwagon and go with popular brands. Also, the guys who go with the lesser known brands can't kibbitz as much on the forum sites and connect with others. So if you had Audio Research instead of Cary ....
And I never will. My budget simply isn't there. And I have other interests.
I'm not making the claim that I know which DACs are at the very top in April 2020. I do think that it very well may be a mistake for some participants in this thread to dismiss the "dream series". Will 1 in 10 sell their MSB having auditioned Koch's finest? 2 in 10? Maybe even 3? I think it is worth finding out. I won't benefit. You guys might and it will be informative for many others.
I have had 4 dac in my system. 3 sounded some sort of shade of the same thing. Very pleasant, non fatiguing, quiet. The last, the Mojo Audio Mystique V3 jumped out as far superior. It took an STST Motus II TT with Allnic H1201 pre and Hana ML to find a vinyl setup that stood up to it. Even so, there is quite a bit of material I prefer on Digital. But, when I do find the best of the best, the vinyl nudges out the digital with a little bit better sense of realism in instruments and vocals.
Of course I was not congratulated on the purchase of my Schiit Yggdrasil Analog 2 DAC, because it is a DAC that nobody in the "high end" clique cares about since it is "too cheap" to be seriously considered
Here's a tale you'll like. After I received my Lampi GG2, I was torn using it in the music room for my TV audio output that I send to the big rig, simply because I didn't want to waste any Lampi tube life for lowly TV programs. So, with a 30 day return option, I bought the cheapest Schitt DAC made to evaluate. Lo and behold, I was stunned at how good it is and even better, it's about the size of a bar of soap. Perfect for TV optical out over 25' fiber to the DAC, which then feeds my Soulution 725 preamp. Thus, no need to use the Lampi when I watch TV programs. Needless to say, I kept it. So I wouldn't be surprised that their more expensive DACS are quite impressive indeed. I'm a believer that they make some pretty good schitt!
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Listening to it for 2 days now .
I actually find it quit an achievement i have been able to listen to cd for that long
For me it looks like i would rank this under sota digital compared to tape
Meitner MA 2 used as transport..
If a ml 30.6 ref comes along i might buy it as well
I actually find it quit an achievement i have been able to listen to cd for that long
For me it looks like i would rank this under sota digital compared to tape
Meitner MA 2 used as transport..
If a ml 30.6 ref comes along i might buy it as well
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