SS Sound vs. Tube Sound (for the umpteenth time)

[mep]

Do you have a reference for this claim? In my understanding JFETs are used because they sound good, potentially its also a fashion thing. One thing's for sure, JFETs do not have increased gain (where 'gain' means transconductance) over bipolars, they do have a noise advantage in certain circuits where the impedance is high, though it depends on the particular JFET in question. If a high input impedance is a requirement to an amp then a well-chosen JFET will be quieter than a bipolar.

I never said that JFETs have more transconductance/gain than bipolar transistors. I never even mentioned bipolar transistors. I simply said that JFETs are used in lots of current day tube gear. You asked for examples, look at any ARC product. So let's not confuse the issue by bringing up something I never said (JFETs vs. bipolar transistors). I don't know if ARC is making a single piece of gear (preamps, power amps, and phono stages) that doesn't use JFETs.

 

[mep]

MEP, when you say the 'bloom is off the rose,' do you mean that despite all the positives of SS that you mentioned, you are still missing something in the sound compared to tubes? I was reluctant to comment on your solid state experience because mine was literally decades ago (having stuck by tube stuff, by and large, since mid-70's), but since you are basing some of your views on older solid state amps, the Krell and Phase Linear, perhaps a newer solid state amp has some of what you may be missing.

Bill-That is exactly what I'm saying. Tubes have their shortcomings no matter how much you love them, especially tube amps. High output impedance and low dampening factor are two huge things that affect the performance of tube amps with regards to ultimate bass quality and linear high-frequency extension when interfaced with everyday crossover networks and non-flat speaker impedances. The magic of tube amps has always resided in the midrange for me (which is where most of the music lives and breathes). And that is probably the area where the bloom is off the rose for me with regards to SS. We can all talk about how SS and tube sound are converging closer and closer, but I don't think that is really true other than the fact that tube amps have become ‘more’ neutral, but yet they are not neutral. There is much more work to be done there and I don’t know that tubes can overcome their inherent limitations with regards to high impedance and low transconductance and noise. But, there is also much more work to be done with SS. I still think that SS is a little threadbare in the midrange compared to really good tube amps.

 

[microstrip]

(...) Tubes have their shortcomings no matter how much you love them, especially tube amps. High output impedance and low dampening factor are two huge things that affect the performance of tube amps with regards to ultimate bass quality and linear high-frequency extension when interfaced with everyday crossover networks and non-flat speaker impedances. (...)

Mep,

Do you expect to have the ultimate bass frequency quality in an untreated room? Believe me, I have better bass with two giant tuned diaphragmatic absorbers and an ARC tube amplifier than I ever had with the Krell MCX750's previous to the bass treatment. Why have an amplifier with damping of 1000 if your room is undamped? IMHO , we should analyze real cases, not the theoretical if ... I understand that in your system a SS amplifier has better results.

BTW, damping factors numbers are misleading - a damping factor of 400 is not twice better than 200.

BTW2 I do not listen to electronic music or organ pipe recordings, but love the slam of the bass of a full symphonic orchestra played loud. Most SS amplifiers I have used do have great bass extension and control but lack slam - that subjective feeling of moving air and power in the bass. All in my humble system and room, of course.

 

[mep]

Micro-"Your humble system?" Surely you jest. Are you inferring that my room is an untreated room? While my room may not be optimally treated, it's far from being "untreated." I have posted pictures of my room. Hell, I have posted videos of my room.

 

[MylesBAstor]

I am speaking in general terms folks (i said in general , no?) But, and to make for interest in the thread, so, while the second amp is OTL, and more like a solid state unit, the first amp you quote...mind telling what it is...as it might as well be a solid state amp....what makes a tube amp a tube amp give a tube "sound" is missing from it in a big way....

Well this is in general too for the current crop of tube amplifiers. BTW, the first is ARC's Ref. 750 and the second is Ralph's MA-3. And while the MA-3 is an OTL,, there are basically no differences in bandwidth. between the two tube amplifiers. Again, none of them looks particularly bandwidth limited to me.

 

[opus111]

I never said that JFETs have more transconductance/gain than bipolar transistors. I never even mentioned bipolar transistors.

My bad, I misread what you wrote. I took it when you said 'power amps' that they not necessarily covered by the modifier 'tube'. Thanks for clarifying.

 

[opus111]

Really? This tube amplifier is bandwidth limited?

Its a typical defensive stance to exaggerate the original words - tomelex actually said 'more bandwidth limited' (emphasis mine) in comparing with SS. And, no surprise the first example you give gives more weight to his point, to wit:

POWER BANDWIDTH: (-3dB points) 15Hz to 150kHz.
FREQUENCY RESPONSE: (-3dB points at 1 watt) 1 Hz to 200 kHz.

Find an example SS where the half power point is 15Hz but the small signal bandwidth is 1Hz? An example of being bandwidth limited if ever I saw one.

 

[microstrip]

Micro-"Your humble system?" Surely you jest. Are you inferring that my room is an untreated room? While my room may not be optimally treated, it's far from being "untreated." I have posted pictures of my room. Hell, I have posted videos of my room.

I do not remember to have seen any acoustic data from your room, my apologies if it is posted and I missed it. And yes, compared to the great and well professionally and fully treated rooms of members such as Steve, Mike or Amir, my room is very humble - and any system in an humble room becomes humble by contagion.

What type of bass treatments do you use?

 

[mep]

My bad, I misread what you wrote. I took it when you said 'power amps' that they not necessarily covered by the modifier 'tube'. Thanks for clarifying.

Thanks. You had me worried for a moment!

 

[mep]

I do not remember to have seen any acoustic data from your room, my apologies if it is posted and I missed it. And yes, compared to the great and well professionally and fully treated rooms of members such as Steve, Mike or Amir, my room is very humble - and any system in an humble room becomes humble by contagion.

What type of bass treatments do you use?

I don't have any acoustic data for my room. What I have is ten 2' x 4' sound absorbing panels in my room. If you can find any of my posts where I posted pictures and/or videos of my room, you can see them. Again, I'm not claiming some ultimate sound treatment, I'm just saying that my room isn't untreated.

 

[MylesBAstor]

Its a typical defensive stance to exaggerate the original words - tomelex actually said 'more bandwidth limited' (emphasis mine) in comparing with SS. And, no surprise the first example you give gives more weight to his point, to wit:

POWER BANDWIDTH: (-3dB points) 15Hz to 150kHz.
FREQUENCY RESPONSE: (-3dB points at 1 watt) 1 Hz to 200 kHz.

Find an example SS where the half power point is 15Hz but the small signal bandwidth is 1Hz? An example of being bandwidth limited if ever I saw one.

Well that raises a point that one can't compare these figures unless the designer states at what power it's measured, eg. like cj notes at 10 Watts. Also it will have to do whether the amp is DC coupled or not.

Jeff Rowland:

MODEL 625 SPECIFICATIONS
Output Power 300 watts @ 8 ohms / 550 watts @ 4 ohms
Frequency Response 5 Hz – 350 kHz

Cello Encoure amplifier:

Specifications

Power Output:
encore stereo amplifier: 125 w/ch @ 8ohms
encore mono amplifier: 500 w/ch @8ohms

IMD SMPTE (60Hz and 7kHz): <0.3%
THD (20-20kHz): <0.3%
Frequency Response: -.3dB @20kHz

Dartzeel Model 108

Frequency response:

1 Hz to 1 MHz, +0, -6 dB (depends on measurement method).
10 Hz to 100 kHz, +0, -0.5 dB (depends on measurement method).
20 Hz to 50 kHz, ±0.5 dB (Version B, XLR inputs).

So are these bandwidth limited too?

 

[opus111]

So are these bandwidth limited too?

You haven't provided enough data for me to tell. Perhaps the manufacturers don't provide the data.

The tell-tale is where the half power bandwidth points and the small signal bandwidth have markedly different frequencies. I've no reason to believe that there's a difference on a typical SS amp. For valve (non-OTL) there's a sound technical reason why there would be.

 

[A.wayne]

Mep,

Do you expect to have the ultimate bass frequency quality in an untreated room? Believe me, I have better bass with two giant tuned diaphragmatic absorbers and an ARC tube amplifier than I ever had with the Krell MCX750's previous to the bass treatment. Why have an amplifier with damping of 1000 if your room is undamped? IMHO , we should analyze real cases, not the theoretical if ... I understand that in your system a SS amplifier has better results.

BTW, damping factors numbers are misleading - a damping factor of 400 is not twice better than 200.

BTW2 I do not listen to electronic music or organ pipe recordings, but love the slam of the bass of a full symphonic orchestra played loud. Most SS amplifiers I have used do have great bass extension and control but lack slam - that subjective feeling of moving air and power in the bass. All in my humble system and room, of course.

Cant agree here this is what SS does better than everyone else , bass slam and power ....!!!!

 

[A.wayne]

Micro-"Your humble system?" Surely you jest. Are you inferring that my room is an untreated room? While my room may not be optimally treated, it's far from being "untreated." I have posted pictures of my room. Hell, I have posted videos of my room.

Shag carpet and a disco ball may not cut it as acoustic treatment ...

 

[microstrip]

Cant agree here this is what SS does better than everyone else , bass slam and power ....!!!!

My suggestion: listen to a large symphonic orchestra recording a system having an Audio Research REF610T or a VTL Ziegfried with a REF40. Then replace the system with a solid state amplification of similar power. You will be surprised. At less I was, and more than once ...

 

[A.wayne]

The VTL's I i have heard , nothing on the ARC , if you could be a bit more specific on which SS amp you are using for the comparison , i might be able to be more specific with my response ...

 

[MylesBAstor]

You haven't provided enough data for me to tell. Perhaps the manufacturers don't provide the data.

The tell-tale is where the half power bandwidth points and the small signal bandwidth have markedly different frequencies. I've no reason to believe that there's a difference on a typical SS amp. For valve (non-OTL) there's a sound technical reason why there would be.

Then perhaps Tom should have provided which measurement he was using to judge bandwidth?

 

[LL21]

The VTL's I i have heard , nothing on the ARC , if you could be a bit more specific on which SS amp you are using for the comparison , i might be able to be more specific with my response ...

I think he meant:

...Believe me, I have better bass with two giant tuned diaphragmatic absorbers and an ARC tube amplifier than I ever had with the Krell MCX750's previous to the bass treatment...

 

[DonH50]

Both tube and SS amps tend to have less bandwidth at full power than the oft-used 1 W level used to spec their small-signal frequency response.

 

[opus111]

At the top end I can understand if the slew rate's a bit on the low side. But SS having less at the bottom - do you have any examples?