Spiral Grove Centroid vs Kuzma 4-Point (on GPA Monaco 2.0)

[jfrech]

John, I'm pleased to hear you are enjoying the 4Point. I found it is a great match with the Monaco 2. Please continue sharing your impressions - much appreciated!

Thanks Tima, great call on the matching with the Monaco. Looks are to die for also

 

[No Regrets]

Yes better in pretty much every way. It brings a tonal density/warmth to each note that the Spiral Groove didn't possess. It's more quiet, allowing for more resolution. Wider and deeper stage. Maybe ?? a tad less air, but a slight bigger, wider, deeper stage. Seems to unravel things more. Curious I do seem to notice vinyl noise a tad more. I am using a little damping in both the vertical and horizontal planes and beginning to experiment with VTA micro adjustments per 140, 180, 200 gram. Right now I go 4 notches on the dial down for 140's from the 180 position. And 2 up from 180 position for 200's.

Again, I do like the look, feel, build quality. After using the Spiral Groove for years (5+) I don't think I'll ever go back to it. I had intended to keep it for a 2nd table one day, but I think I may put it up for sale soon....

PS, it seems to get more out of my Goldfinger Statement.

Hi,

I'm just curious... did you happen to have the Centroid on a Spiral Groove table prior to the Monaco? If so, how did the Spiral Groove table compare sonically to the Monaco?

Best wishes,
Don

 

[Down Under]

So my dealer stopped by Thursday evening. We listened for VTA adjustments. We started with the arm level (by measuring the front and back of the arm with a 180 gram record, needle on surface. Raised the back of the arm, and no. Lowered one full revolution on the dial, and hey that's a little better. Lowered another full revolution and no. Lowered again and hey the way the piano and the guitar sounds. So I ended up 3 full revolutions down on the dial from level. This is for a 180 gram. Right now I am playing with 200 gram, seems like I like the arm 2 notches lower, about to try 2.5 but that's it. My dealer likes his arm 4 notches above the 180 position for 140/thinner records. So I'll begin listening for that soon.

I've missed the VTA on the fly adjustments since I sold my TriPlanar years ago...

Thanks so much for the detailed research.

 

[jfrech]

Hi,

I'm just curious... did you happen to have the Centroid on a Spiral Groove table prior to the Monaco? If so, how did the Spiral Groove table compare sonically to the Monaco?

Best wishes,
Don

Hi Don,

I never owned or heard the Spiral Groove table. I just bought the universal version of the Centroid arm...

 

[No Regrets]

Hi Don,

I never owned or heard the Spiral Groove table. I just bought the universal version of the Centroid arm...

Thank you for your reply!

I have heard the Spiral Groove table with Centroid arm several times and always thought it did a wonderful job. However, I have never had the opportunity to listen to the Monaco yet and was hoping to learn how they may compare to each other, realizing they utilize different drive systems.

Best wishes,
Don

 

[jfrech]

Thank you for your reply!

I have heard the Spiral Groove table with Centroid arm several times and always thought it did a wonderful job. However, I have never had the opportunity to listen to the Monaco yet and was hoping to learn how they may compare to each other, realizing they utilize different drive systems.

Best wishes,
Don

I should add, the Centroid is a killer good arm. I used it for ~5 years and simply loved it. I suspect on the Spiral Groove table it's performance may elevate some. I also wonder that some of what I am hearing is system synergy with 4-point and not just one arm vs another. Could also be my Goldfinger Statement just likes the 4-point better than the Centroid. So you're mileage can certainly vary.

 

[Bonesy Jonesy]

So my dealer stopped by Thursday evening. We listened for VTA adjustments. We started with the arm level (by measuring the front and back of the arm with a 180 gram record, needle on surface. Raised the back of the arm, and no. Lowered one full revolution on the dial, and hey that's a little better. Lowered another full revolution and no. Lowered again and hey the way the piano and the guitar sounds. So I ended up 3 full revolutions down on the dial from level. This is for a 180 gram. Right now I am playing with 200 gram, seems like I like the arm 2 notches lower, about to try 2.5 but that's it. My dealer likes his arm 4 notches above the 180 position for 140/thinner records. So I'll begin listening for that soon.

I've missed the VTA on the fly adjustments since I sold my TriPlanar years ago...

Hi 'jfrech',
When you were levelling up your Kuzma 4Point 11" way back in Dec 2021, how did you obtain the horizontal centre of the tonearm arm when it is tapered from the headshell to the back of the arm and Kuzma have never put any horizontal centre markings / a line on the tonearm arm ?

 

[Bonesy Jonesy]

Hi 'jfrech',
When you were levelling up your Kuzma 4Point 11" way back in Dec 2021, how did you obtain the horizontal centre of the tonearm arm when it is tapered from the headshell to the back of the arm and Kuzma have never put any horizontal centre markings / a line on the tonearm arm ?

With the Kuzma 4Point having a tapered arm it is also impossible to use a mini (very low weight) horizontal spirit level and also impossible to use a very small button / circular type central spirit level on the head shell as there is nowhere to place it due to the shape and design of the head shell !

It would have been great if Kuzma had put a horizontal reference horizontal line along the tonearm arm (with a choice of colour i.e. silver or gold etc.) like SME have done / do with their Series IV and V tonearms !

 

[thekong]

Are you guys talking about using the line as reference to set “neutral” VTA? If so, I use the bottom of the headshell as reference instead.

 

[Bonesy Jonesy]

Are you guys talking about using the line as reference to set “neutral” VTA? If so, I use the bottom of the headshell as reference instead.

Yes 'thekong', a 'neutral' VTA i.e. a perfectly horizontal arm of the tonearm.

With the cartridge installed (especially my MSL Eminent Ex with a large part of the circular cartridge mounting surface taking nearly all of the surface area of the underside of the headshell), it is impossible to use any kind of spirit level or a measurement direct from a tape measure etc.

 

[thekong]

I use something like this, but I put a trashed LP on the platter first so I have the correct height. Just put the block on the side of the cartridge and look through it. Of course it helps if your headshell and cartridge have contrasting colors, such as the black headshell of my Kuzma Safir and the silver body of my EMT P6.0

 

[tima]

If so, I use the bottom of the headshell as reference instead.

es 'thekong', a 'neutral' VTA i.e. a perfectly horizontal arm of the tonearm.

I have a 4Point and use @thekong's approach, rather than the tonearm itself. The easiet way I know to get the bottom of the headshell parallel to the platter for a specific cartridge is to use the Wally Reference from Wally Tools.

I used the original version of the tool designed by Wally Malewicz, which was then called the Wally VTA gauge. It was simple to use. Measure the height of the bottom of the headshell with a little ruler included. Then install the Wally VTA on the headshell with supplied shims to get it to the height you measure with the cartridge. Place the tool on flat record. Using the tonearm's VTA adjustment you can get the Wally VTA perfectly flat against the record. I looked for no light coming between the tool and the record.





This worked great.

J.R.Boisclair, Wally's assistant and now head of Wally Tools, improved the Wally VTA and renamed it the Wally Reference. This new version gets the underside of the headshell parallel to the platter both front-to-back (VTA) and left-to-right (Azimuth), whereas the original only dealt with the front-to-back plane. The method for using it is essentially the same, but the tool is different, with 'blades' for both axes. It works great but is considerably more expensive than the original.



Note where the setting is on the 4Point scale after it is leveled so you can return to this 'neutral' spot if needed.

If you can find the Feickert Adjust+ azimuth tool or the small level that came with it, that level sits perfectly on a 4Point headshell. You can use that to get the headshell level side-to-side. Adjust+ is no longer available.

 

[jfrech]

Hi 'jfrech',
When you were levelling up your Kuzma 4Point 11" way back in Dec 2021, how did you obtain the horizontal centre of the tonearm arm when it is tapered from the headshell to the back of the arm and Kuzma have never put any horizontal centre markings / a line on the tonearm arm ?

Hi, the bottom of the arm is not tapered like the top of the arm. So I use a device like the GH acoustics pictured in thekongs post just above.

I do agree, a line would make it even easier.

Here's a pic:

 

[Bonesy Jonesy]

Hi, the bottom of the arm is not tapered like the top of the arm. So I use a device like the GH acoustics pictured in thekongs post just above.

I do agree, a line would make it even easier.

Here's a pic:

View attachment 110434

Aah ok 'jfrech', if the bottom of the Kuzma tonearm arm is not tapered and perfectly horizontally straight then there is no issue with measuring if the tonearm arm is level or not to the platter.

 

[Bonesy Jonesy]

I have a 4Point and use @thekong's approach, rather than the tonearm itself. The easiet way I know to get the bottom of the headshell parallel to the platter for a specific cartridge is to use the Wally Reference from Wally Tools.

I used the original version of the tool designed by Wally Malewicz, which was then called the Wally VTA gauge. It was simple to use. Measure the height of the bottom of the headshell with a little ruler included. Then install the Wally VTA on the headshell with supplied shims to get it to the height you measure with the cartridge. Place the tool on flat record. Using the tonearm's VTA adjustment you can get the Wally VTA perfectly flat against the record. I looked for no light coming between the tool and the record.

View attachment 110395

View attachment 110396

This worked great.

J.R.Boisclair, Wally's assistant and now head of Wally Tools, improved the Wally VTA and renamed it the Wally Reference. This new version gets the underside of the headshell parallel to the platter both front-to-back (VTA) and left-to-right (Azimuth), whereas the original only dealt with the front-to-back plane. The method for using it is essentially the same, but the tool is different, with 'blades' for both axes. It works great but is considerably more expensive than the original.

View attachment 110418

Note where the setting is on the 4Point scale after it is leveled so you can return to this 'neutral' spot if needed.

If you can find the Feickert Adjust+ azimuth tool or the small level that came with it, that level sits perfectly on a 4Point headshell. You can use that to get the headshell level side-to-side. Adjust+ is no longer available.

View attachment 110411

Thank you 'tima' for your very informative post. Very much appreciated. I will look into the 'Wally' tools.

 

[Bonesy Jonesy]

I use something like this, but I put a trashed LP on the platter first so I have the correct height. Just put the block on the side of the cartridge and look through it. Of course it helps if your headshell and cartridge have contrasting colors, such as the black headshell of my Kuzma Safir and the silver body of my EMT P6.0

View attachment 110398

Thank you 'the knog'. I have the 'Smartstylus' version of such a SRA / VTA / Azimuth template gauge. Now that I know (from 'jfrech' ) that the bottom of the Kuzma 4Point 11" is not tapered I can now measure with this template gauge if my tonearm arm is level to the platter or not.

 

[Bonesy Jonesy]

Thank you 'the knog'. I have the 'Smartstylus' version of such a SRA / VTA / Azimuth template gauge. Now that I know (from 'jfrech' ) that the bottom of the Kuzma 4Point 11" is not tapered I can now measure with this template gauge if my tonearm arm is level to the platter or not.

Ooops apologies 'thekong' mistyped your WBF user name !

 

[Bonesy Jonesy]

Ooops apologies 'thekong' mistyped your WBF user name !

Damn, the horizontal lines of my Smartstylus' version of such a SRA / VTA / Azimuth template gauge are too high to see if my Kuzma 4Point 11" is level from comparing these horizontal lines with the bottom of my Kuzma tonearm arm

 

[Kcin]

I use a laser on a microphone stand along with the acrylic gauge mentioned above.

 

[Bonesy Jonesy]

I use a laser on a microphone stand along with the acrylic gauge mentioned above.

Thank you 'Kcin'. Much appreciated.
I was thinking along similar lines this morning with using a lazer light along the tonearm arm