Spiral Grove Centroid vs Kuzma 4-Point (on GPA Monaco 2.0)

jfrech

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I do not understand. Why is it not right?

Tima and Mtemur,

I have heard the same thing about the biwire option. That it can possibly effect the capacitance of both (sets of 4) wires and I should stick with a single wire option....
 

AMR / iFi audio

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I was told that Alan Perkins was looking for an investor to get the company back up and running again. I was disappointed because I think he is a brilliant designer.
I'm hoping that the process will go smoothly. I believe that their Balanced Force Design method is something remarkable and it should be present on the market.
 

tima

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Tima and Mtemur,

I have heard the same thing about the biwire option. That it can possibly effect the capacitance of both (sets of 4) wires and I should stick with a single wire option....

Makes me curious. I wonder what is that effect? May I ask who you heard this from?

I presume such capacitance can be measured. The distance from cartridge clips to termination box is not very long.
 

mtemur

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Makes me curious. I wonder what is that effect? May I ask who you heard this from?
I didn't hear it from anybody. the things I've written are my observations. I didn't mean it's due to capacitance but I think Jfrech has a point. on the other hand if you use two sets of wires in a tonearm you'll definitely increase mechanical resistance caused by wires to bearings and that will effect tonearm's performance. that's why only one set of very thin inner wires should be used inside tonearms.

more importantly if you happen to use that thin wire from cartridge clips to rca connectors (which sounds logical and electrically ok) you'll notice that foundation of music is missing, something is not quite right. as I said before using thin wires is logical and can carry required current but none of the other components's sound is tailored for that. they are tailored for relatively thick tonearm cable being used from tonearm to phono pre. at least that's how it used to be.

same rule applies for all other cables. for example most interconnects are very thick and only 1 out of that it's 50+ strands is more than enough to carry the current from one DAC/Phono pre to amplifier but cable companies are choosing to use 50X more strands cause that's how they tailor the sound. most of the power cords in the market today can carry 50X more current than that is demanded by the amplifier but no, they keep making thick cables.

additionally there is the effect of insulation and dielectric coefficient. that's another factor that effects cable thickness. a cable company tries a lot of combination before releasing a cable and the product would be engineered to sound right not electrically logical.

another important issue is cable length which is irrelevant to the subject but I need to mention. cables are engineered to sound right for certain lengths. longer or shorter ones will sound different and should be avoided if possible. my observation for the right lengths are:

-interconnects: 1.0 - 1.5 mt. (2 mt. if balanced)
-tonearm cables: 1.0 - 1.25 mt.
-power cords: 1.75 - 2.5 mt.
-speaker cables: 2.0 - 3.0 mt.
 
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analogsa

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That dual wiring has to be one of the weirdest ideas in tonearm wiring ever. On my sample the combination of 8 wires made it impossible to adjust the antiskate properly. No matter how the wire loom was repositioned it always applied way too much bias. Let alone the potential electrical issues and the general pointlessness of the concept.
 
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tima

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if you use two sets of wires in a tonearm you'll definitely increase mechanical resistance caused by wires to bearings and that will effect tonearm's performance. that's why only one set of very thin inner wires should be used inside tonearms.

Your opinion certainly is unique, or put differently I have not heard similar elsewhere. I don't know if you have a 4Point. I've had two of the 11" model, each with the termination box and full cable, one with metal bearings and Crystal-Cable silver/gold tonearm wiring and and one with sapphire bearings with Kondo wiring.

I don't know what sort of effect on the tonearm's performance your have in mind. No experience I've had suggests there is any problem with tonearm performance as a function of 'mechanical resistance caused by wires to bearings.' Trying to imagine a such a scenario with either the horizontal and vertical bearings, I'm not seeing it. The weight of the arm settles the load bearing points into their cups and the very small difference between one set vs two sets of wires is not going to change that.. I've talked with Franc Kuzma about wire combinations and he is very precise in not using wires whose ridigity might cause sufficient resistance to the arm's detriment.

As long as the arm is mounted correctly, such that the wire is not looped where it comes out of the tonearm, there should not be a problem.

Wire2-s.jpg

On my sample the combination of 8 wires made it impossible to adjust the antiskate properly.

What brand of wires are in your arm? Did you discuss this with Kuzma?
 

mtemur

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Your opinion certainly is unique, or put differently I have not heard similar elsewhere.
thank you, that's what I was expecting to hear.

whatever I've written before stands for all tonearms in general, not only Kuzma. for example SAT designer is very cautious about inner wires' resistance to bearings.
I believe Kuzma 4point is a great performer. I spent a lot of time setting up and using top arms like Acoustical Systems Axiom, TecDas titanium and SAT CF1-09. yes they're better than Kuzma but they're too expensive. they were wired with Kondo except SAT.
 

jfrech

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Makes me curious. I wonder what is that effect? May I ask who you heard this from?

I presume such capacitance can be measured. The distance from cartridge clips to termination box is not very long.
Hi my dealer. It wasn't a definitive comment, more like it doesn't sound like a good idea to have a un-connected wire (we were not going to be using both). Could allow RFI, possible capacitance issues, etc etc.
 

jfrech

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My dealer called last night. He's taken 2-3 weeks to do his comparison's. In a nut shell, he does prefer the 4-point to our Centroids. I think I'll finally get it in my system Fri or so next week. I am very curious here...
 
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jfrech

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So this took longer than I thought (more my fault and my schedule).

Any way, my 4-point was delivered to my dealer today. I had it wired with Cardas Clear to an RCA block. So my existing Transparent cables do not require any change. I'll get a few final listening moments with with Centroid and the 4-Point gets installed early next week. A lot more to come and a few pics...
 

jfrech

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The 4-point is installed. Mostly dialed in but I am sure I have weeks of fine tuning VTA, VTF, damping and who knows what else. Cable break-in also.

Couple of things, this is a quiet arm, and the Centroid was one of the most quiet arms I've ever heard (in my system). More solid foundation up and down the frequency spectrum. Appears to be more energy and resolution along with deep deep bass notes. I only have 2 hours on it...

This is a true only the arm changed comparison. The arm is wired with Cardas Clear to the RCA termination block and then my existing Transparent Magnum Opus cabling to the phono stage.

I'll post more as time goes on. I can see why the 4-Point is well thought of.
 

Kcin

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The 4-point is installed. Mostly dialed in but I am sure I have weeks of fine tuning VTA, VTF, damping and who knows what else. Cable break-in also.

Couple of things, this is a quiet arm, and the Centroid was one of the most quiet arms I've ever heard (in my system). More solid foundation up and down the frequency spectrum. Appears to be more energy and resolution along with deep deep bass notes. I only have 2 hours on it...

This is a true only the arm changed comparison. The arm is wired with Cardas Clear to the RCA termination block and then my existing Transparent Magnum Opus cabling to the phono stage.

I'll post more as time goes on. I can see why the 4-Point is well thought of.
Congratulations,

I find it difficult to fault the 4-point for the price. The precision of its VTA tower is worth the price alone- also try adjusting azimuth on just about any other arm. It's maddening. The 4 point is a dream in this regard.

If you have not burned in your cable yet- you should try to. I had a 4 point with Discovery Cable and my current one with Kondo. Both benefited greatly by hooking up the the AudioDharma to them.

Enjoy.
 
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Addicted to hifi

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The 4-point is installed. Mostly dialed in but I am sure I have weeks of fine tuning VTA, VTF, damping and who knows what else. Cable break-in also.

Couple of things, this is a quiet arm, and the Centroid was one of the most quiet arms I've ever heard (in my system). More solid foundation up and down the frequency spectrum. Appears to be more energy and resolution along with deep deep bass notes. I only have 2 hours on it...

This is a true only the arm changed comparison. The arm is wired with Cardas Clear to the RCA termination block and then my existing Transparent Magnum Opus cabling to the phono stage.

I'll post more as time goes on. I can see why the 4-Point is well thought of.
Congrats on it.
 

tima

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The 4-point is installed. Mostly dialed in but I am sure I have weeks of fine tuning VTA, VTF, damping and who knows what else. Cable break-in also.

Congrats, John. The 4Point is a fine match with the Monaco. Before putting in damping fluid, try the arm with the horizontal and vertical damping troughs removed. It's a simple task (pics in the manual) and easy to put them back on. Double check the VTF after removal.

If you have not burned in your cable yet- you should try to. I had a 4 point with Discovery Cable and my current one with Kondo. Both benefited greatly by hooking up the the AudioDharma to them.

I can vouch for doing this and briefly covered it il my 4Point review. I don't know if the Kondo would ever break-in with just 0.5mV passing through it. Kuzma does 48 hours of burn-in at the factory. I added another 96.

DSC01637-small.JPG

That's a Hagerman Frybaby device with an adapter I made to attach the cartridge clips; the AudioDharma is more complete.
 
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jfrech

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Kcin and Tima, I'll try to rig up some break in soon, I am sure that's good advice.

Tima, I went ahead and installed the damping troughs (both) and am using a slight bit in both troughs. I used to have a TriPlanar and found over the years that I liked it without damping best. Over the next few weeks I'll play with more less/damping and then remove the troughs and see. It's a good pointer.

I am just (pleasantly) surprised by how much quieter this arm is. And it's just a joy to use and set up.
 

Down Under

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Curious if you have reached any conclusions as yet?
Agree that it is so easy to use.
 

jfrech

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Curious if you have reached any conclusions as yet?
Agree that it is so easy to use.
Yes better in pretty much every way. It brings a tonal density/warmth to each note that the Spiral Groove didn't possess. It's more quiet, allowing for more resolution. Wider and deeper stage. Maybe ?? a tad less air, but a slight bigger, wider, deeper stage. Seems to unravel things more. Curious I do seem to notice vinyl noise a tad more. I am using a little damping in both the vertical and horizontal planes and beginning to experiment with VTA micro adjustments per 140, 180, 200 gram. Right now I go 4 notches on the dial down for 140's from the 180 position. And 2 up from 180 position for 200's.

Again, I do like the look, feel, build quality. After using the Spiral Groove for years (5+) I don't think I'll ever go back to it. I had intended to keep it for a 2nd table one day, but I think I may put it up for sale soon....

PS, it seems to get more out of my Goldfinger Statement.
 

Down Under

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Glad you’re happy with the Kuzma.Really interested in your micro VTA adjustments for different thicknesses of vinyl.
 

tima

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Yes better in pretty much every way. It brings a tonal density/warmth to each note that the Spiral Groove didn't possess. It's more quiet, allowing for more resolution. Wider and deeper stage. Maybe ?? a tad less air, but a slight bigger, wider, deeper stage. Seems to unravel things more. Curious I do seem to notice vinyl noise a tad more. I am using a little damping in both the vertical and horizontal planes and beginning to experiment with VTA micro adjustments per 140, 180, 200 gram. Right now I go 4 notches on the dial down for 140's from the 180 position. And 2 up from 180 position for 200's.

Again, I do like the look, feel, build quality. After using the Spiral Groove for years (5+) I don't think I'll ever go back to it. I had intended to keep it for a 2nd table one day, but I think I may put it up for sale soon....

PS, it seems to get more out of my Goldfinger Statement.

John, I'm pleased to hear you are enjoying the 4Point. I found it is a great match with the Monaco 2. Please continue sharing your impressions - much appreciated!
 
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jfrech

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Glad you’re happy with the Kuzma.Really interested in your micro VTA adjustments for different thicknesses of vinyl.
So my dealer stopped by Thursday evening. We listened for VTA adjustments. We started with the arm level (by measuring the front and back of the arm with a 180 gram record, needle on surface. Raised the back of the arm, and no. Lowered one full revolution on the dial, and hey that's a little better. Lowered another full revolution and no. Lowered again and hey the way the piano and the guitar sounds. So I ended up 3 full revolutions down on the dial from level. This is for a 180 gram. Right now I am playing with 200 gram, seems like I like the arm 2 notches lower, about to try 2.5 but that's it. My dealer likes his arm 4 notches above the 180 position for 140/thinner records. So I'll begin listening for that soon.

I've missed the VTA on the fly adjustments since I sold my TriPlanar years ago...
 
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