rbbert

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...But when people constantly criticize specific approaches or points of view, and don’t offer up their own alternative, the discussion doesn’t go very far. When an opinion is criticized and an alternative is not proposed, we are left to wonder...
Mike L. and Al M. have posted some alternatives, which you seem to have difficulty acknowledging?
 
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PeterA

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Remember, it was a good question. You said so yourself. When starting from a false premise, you may find it difficult to manhandle ensuing discussion beyond that point.

Brian, we have a different opinion on the meaning of those words. My argument follows from my understanding of what Karen Sumner has written in this thread and what I hear from what I think are superior audio systems. You are free to disagree. I welcome your alternative to my opinion. Remember, you have to tell me what it is before we can discuss it. Francisco tells us you are free to not respond.
 

PeterA

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Mike L. and Al M. have posted some alternatives, which you seem to have difficulty acknowledging?

No difficulty WRP, I acknowledged Al’s alternative in my post #227. I agree with him that lowering noise helps, but it needs to be done carefully so that you don’t lose vital information that makes the presentation sound more natural. Personally, I would also avoid items that enhance the sound. I have spent years talking to Al about the acoustics of his room and the sound of his system. Same with my system room. Al has told me that he prefers an up close and exciting presentation matching his preferred seating choice.
 
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the sound of Tao

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Yes, a good point, however that assumes teachability or at least openness to learning under some model of receptivity. Scant that here.
I do think it’s hard to fully get the perspectives of others when this hobby is for most so isolated and siloed off. There is so much to be learnt and its all so rich in content and in a range of complex understandings that it can so challenge the limits of our comprehension. So much so that it can form a lifelong journey of learning and for me that is a part of the draw to it. We stay with it because it isn’t easy. It also involves a good degree of compulsion, obsession and passion in its drivers and it can’t be held within the simple black and white of objectives and absolutes. I think there’s likely more to be learnt from finding the correlations in our experiences than there is in just arguing the differences.

It isn’t always easy to stand back and distance ourselves from the limits of our viewpoints or even get that our experience of it isn’t static and that neither are we. Learning involves change and not being stuck within fixed ideas.
 
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tima

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IMHO you can't understand the operating mode of an audio forum where people are free to present their opinions and debate them freely, like we do in WBF.

As far as I see it, you are not a moderator in this forum. So please go on posting your opinions on the different subjects and discussing my points - I am always happy to read from you, but please refrain from telling us what I and other posters should do.

Micro, you said "Surely nothing is completely independent in the creation of the illusion, but in order to implement such properties in a system we need a proper analytical discussion, not a confusing synthesis."

I suggested you act on your own statement. Your reply is an effort at misdirection or distraction, so I assume you are incapable of doing what you yourself said should be done. All I did was give you a title to work with. For a change, present an opinion that is not based on chipping at others.
 

tima

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It isn’t always easy to stand back and distance ourselves from the limits of our viewpoints or even get that our experience of it isn’t static and that neither are we. Learning involves change and not being stuck within fixed ideas.

I see a strong perspective running through your posts, Graham. I don't know what to call it, zen-like or buddist-like; perhaps I'm off base here. I believe we are different enough from one another that we may have difficulty communicating. But we can continue to try.

Each of us has his beliefs and perspectives. Imo these are part of who we are. New experiences may add to or alter our beliefs without the need to deconstruct ourselves from ourselves. I don't need to 'empty the vessel' in order to learn. Certain beliefs or principles we may not want to give up, perhaps we have reasons for holding them.

I just got back from visiting with David and Peter - in no way did I think we were siloed off from one another, just the opposite. I learned from each and we learned together, because I felt we each acted in good faith. I believe you act in good faith. Some here do not. That, imo, is a precondition to receptivity, to learning.
 

microstrip

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....with a fair measure of condescension undercurrent thrown in.......
I did not bother to comment on it. Unfortunately It is part of his usual style when someone disagrees .
 

microstrip

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Micro, you said "Surely nothing is completely independent in the creation of the illusion, but in order to implement such properties in a system we need a proper analytical discussion, not a confusing synthesis."

I suggested you act on your own statement. Your reply is an effort at misdirection or distraction, so I assume you are incapable of doing what you yourself said should be done. All I did was give you a title to work with. For a change, present an opinion that is not based on chipping at others.

Do you expect me to explain what is analysis and synthesis just for you? The analysis has been being done for decades in audio writings.
 

microstrip

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(...)

Karen Sumner‘s thread is about Space: the final frontier and how to achieve it. Since leaving Utah, I have a better appreciation for this aspect of reproduced music. The information is on the recording. If the system is sufficiently resolving, and the room and set up do not corrupt the information, the system should deliver a listening experience that should be about the music and not about the sound of the system.
Peter,

I think this is oversimplification. In such case a good pair of headphones should be all we need to have space - extremely resolving and minimal corruption.

Sound engineers have systems that are optimized for maximum information and minimal corruption. I have listened to a couple of them and no way I consider them as an enjoyable musical experience.
 

Al M.

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It isn’t always easy to stand back and distance ourselves from the limits of our viewpoints or even get that our experience of it isn’t static and that neither are we. Learning involves change and not being stuck within fixed ideas.

Sure, but learning doesn't mean you have to take something "on authority", like using the term ambience as encompassing, meaning to fully include space as proposed. I knew right away that something was wrong with that, but I hadn't sufficiently formulated things for myself yet. Based on useful comments by Karen, Bazelio and Mike L. I then was able to synthesize and develop my own thoughts more fully on the differences between space and ambience, thoughts that people may or may not agree with. This was my recent learning experience on this topic, yesterday and today.
 

the sound of Tao

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I see a strong perspective running through your posts, Graham. I don't know what to call it, zen-like or buddist-like; perhaps I'm off base here. I believe we are different enough from one another that we may have difficulty communicating. But we can continue to try.

Each of us has his beliefs and perspectives. Imo these are part of who we are. New experiences may add to or alter our beliefs without the need to deconstruct ourselves from ourselves. I don't need to 'empty the vessel' in order to learn. Certain beliefs or principles we may not want to give up, perhaps we have reasons for holding them.

I just got back from visiting with David and Peter - in no way did I think we were siloed off from one another, just the opposite. I learned from each and we learned together, because I felt we each acted in good faith. I believe you act in good faith. Some here do not. That, imo, is a precondition to receptivity, to learning.
I think we are possibly more aligned on this than you see Tim… I was actually thinking about your visit to David with Peter when I wrote about the hobbies tendency to isolation from each other much beyond our posting. It’s just that physically we are mostly remote and the experience of sharing that you had was exactly what I was pointing to simply because these aren’t things that happen to many of us that often. I’ve got a good mate who I visit regularly and do the music and gear thing. Most of our experience of each other here though continues to be through the lens of written word… but we share a great alignment in the music and some clear overlaps in gear.

I also don’t see some constant deconstruction in learning but change mostly about unfolding and evolving. I’ll have to write more carefully when I respond to your thoughts though. I hadnt seen the great differences between us that perhaps you do.
 
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PeterA

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Peter,

I think this is oversimplification. In such case a good pair of headphones should be all we need to have space - extremely resolving and minimal corruption.

Sound engineers have systems that are optimized for maximum information and minimal corruption. I have listened to a couple of them and no way I consider them as an enjoyable musical experience.

Francisco, I prefer the experience of listening to speakers in a room with the music presented in front of me. There is also the issue of scale. For me it is about retrieving the information and presenting it. For me the result must sound natural. I have not experienced that with headphones yet.
 

the sound of Tao

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Sure, but learning doesn't mean you have to take something "on authority", like using the term ambience as encompassing, meaning to fully include space as proposed. I knew right away that something was wrong with that, but I hadn't sufficiently formulated things for myself yet. Based on useful comments by Karen, Bazelio and Mike L. I then was able to synthesize and develop my own thoughts more fully on the differences between space and ambience, thoughts that people may or may not agree with. This was my recent learning experience on this topic, yesterday and today.
Al the call to understand and reflect on things is one of the great things about the threads here that are highly conceptual. There is so much spark and energy that these conversations bring and maybe what we all finally determine to be true is probably less important than that we are taking the steps to figure through and unravel the puzzle and come to our own understanding.

We all include context when we are discussing these things and so I can easily factor in and work with what you are saying and understand where you are coming from just as equally as I can relate to other positions. Accepting things at face value certainly isn’t one of the traits of most here who throw themselves into these threads. I’m always grateful that people put so much into these discussions and that I can then get so much out of them. I certainly don’t need to agree with someone to appreciate their point of view and also learn much from them.
 

Ron Resnick

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I just got back from visiting with David and Peter - in no way did I think we were siloed off from one another, just the opposite.

Tim,

I think this is a "straw man" reply to Tao's belief that "this hobby is for most so isolated and siloed off." I'm confident Tao was not suggesting that close friends who understand each other well and tend to agree each other are isolated and siloed off -- from each other.
 

tima

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Tim,

I think this is a "straw man" reply to Tao's belief that "this hobby is for most so isolated and siloed off." I'm confident Tao was not suggesting that close friends who understand each other well and tend to agree each other are isolated and siloed off -- from each other.

Ron, I don't think I was making an argument to disprove what Tao said as much as offering a counter example. Perhaps a better counter example would be WBF itself. We dialog, cajole, argue, agree and disagree. Granted those are done through text rather than by voice, but the engagement with an active mind is still there. Granted we all die alone and are capable of independent thought --- silos if you like -- but I don't think those are somehow negative.

This a giant thread swerve. Offer a few real life scenarios that depict a non-siloed existence.
 
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the sound of Tao

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Guys I’d add the reference to isolation I made was essentially a response to Tim, David and Peter’s recent get together… the isolation that I was most talking about is being unable to get together and compare shared experiences of systems… not so much experiences of each other though I do see that as an important additional missing element in the interchange. It’s not just about the varying clarity or transparency of peoples writing capabilities but also about the essential difference in just reading someone as opposed to meeting them and then sharing music and being in person together.
 

tima

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I will say it is easier to understand one's posts having met them. And I chose to meet them having read their posts. Turns out we were symbiotic simpaticos having breakfast together. :)

David even asked what became of Molly Ringwald.
 
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Kingrex

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What is a noise reducing power cord? I'm familiar with shielded cables and power cords. But these don't reduce noise; they shield the conductors from external noise. Perhaps there are power cords with passive inline filters that I've never seen. Either way, correlating ultrasonic noise filtration to an audible artificial void created between musicians as you've done here is by far the biggest pile of "baloney" anywhere in this thread and perhaps on this forum to date. And yet, Microstrip is the one making shit up? Oh... My sides. My sides.
I thought Shunyata made it up with their NR series of cords. I have no idea what is in one.
 

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