Reno Hi-Fi took all prices on Pass products off their website?????

BlueFox

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Nov 8, 2013
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#21

RBFC

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#22
Sections of original post edited for violation of WBF Terms of Service. Thank you to the responding members for taking the high road in their comments.

Lee
 

AlexArgie

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Apr 17, 2017
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#23
I print some Pass prices from Reno HiFi webpage if someone needs them.
 
May 19, 2014
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Round Rock, TX
#25
What's your beef with Reno Hifi? Marketing of high end audio has been changing for quite a while now. Everyone is trying to find out what works best for them. Some are selling direct on forums. Others like Spectral and Magico use traditional dealerships. Frankly, I'm surprised that more companies are not trying to copy Reno's successful approach to selling gear. Mark is a great guy. He knows the equipment and has a lot of experience. He answers emails and phone calls, and he is willing to give great advice. His customer service is superb. Home demos are low risk and convenient. Prices are fair. I think Reno has a good business model.

There seem to be fewer and fewer actual dealers of expensive audio gear. And some customers at the ultra high end simply go to the manufacturer to audition. Then, the closest dealer handles the transaction, installation and service. I heard AJ Conti's latest tables and arms in his shop and compared Transparent cables directly to each other at the factory's R & D listening room.

I don't know the numbers behind various dealers' businesses, so I will not speculate as to whether or not they are being "killed". I do not know who the current President of Pass Labs is. I do know that Mark's father sadly died a couple of years ago and he was involved with the company.

Often there is a fine line between friendships and business deals. I'm sure many members here consider some dealers and manufacturers to be friends. I consider the head of sales at Goodwins High End to be my friend, even though I have not bought anything from him. I know that Ron Resnick considered A.J. Conti his friend. And I am sure that Steve Williams considers many of the customers of his Center Stage footers to be his closest friends. It is a small industry and hobby and there are many friendships.

I fail to see the point of your post.
What's your beef with his beef? I fail to see the reason for your diatribe chock full of objections. Someone can't be unhappy about a site's long term price availability disappearing in a world where brick and mortar is all by dead and full details and pricing are commonly available via the web? I could care less who's friends with whom, should that change his opinion? I don't blame him for leaving, way to grow WBF....
 

PeterA

Active Member
Dec 7, 2011
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#26
What's your beef with his beef? I fail to see the reason for your diatribe chock full of objections. Someone can't be unhappy about a site's long term price availability disappearing in a world where brick and mortar is all by dead and full details and pricing are commonly available via the web? I could care less who's friends with whom, should that change his opinion? I don't blame him for leaving, way to grow WBF....
Hi sbo6. I don't mind his objection to not being able to see prices on the Reno HiFi website. Based on Don's three posts on page one of this thread, he seems to have objections beyond just not seeing the prices published. That is why I asked him what his beef was with Reno HiFi. It appears to me that he has many more objections about Reno and Pass too, and he is wrong about at least one of his assertions, so I asked him about it. I am sorry if you think my post is driving potential members away from the forum. That is certainly not my intention. Happy Thanksgiving.
 
May 19, 2014
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#27
Hi sbo6. I don't mind his objection to not being able to see prices on the Reno HiFi website. Based on Don's three posts on page one of this thread, he seems to have objections beyond just not seeing the prices published. That is why I asked him what his beef was with Reno HiFi. It appears to me that he has many more objections about Reno and Pass too, and he is wrong about at least one of his assertions, so I asked him about it. I am sorry if you think my post is driving potential members away from the forum. That is certainly not my intention. Happy Thanksgiving.
Peter, thank you for our reply. I don't want to be part of an argument, here's how I view it: In Don't first 2 posts he stated a) Reno HiFi removed on - line pricing which was inconvenient and asked why and b) further articulated why he prefers on - line pricing for available products + why on - line pricing is beneficial (no need for email reply, no need for phone calls, etc.). Then he inquired about the "monopoly" and relationship with Mark and Nelson.

Your reply opens and closes with "What's your beef with Reno Hifi?" and "I fail to see the point of your post." with 18 lines rebutting Don's case in between.

After your reply, Don complained about meters, etc (post partially deleted?) and he proceeded to leave WBF whereby everyone bashed him and jumped to your defense.

IMO the key takeaway is - There's an inherent WBF gang mentality whereby some members can say no wrong. To be clear, I'm not saying everything Don said was appropriate, but it might do everyone (including me) some good to think about initial responses and replies thereafter. You just lost a member and I'm sensing others are tired of the perceived entitlement. Maybe I'm making a mountain out of a molehill, maybe not.

Edit - forgot to add, Happy Thanksgiving!!
 

BlueFox

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Nov 8, 2013
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#28
After your reply, Don complained about meters, etc (post partially deleted?) and he proceeded to leave WBF whereby everyone bashed him and jumped to your defense.
Hey, I agreed with him about the meters, and kept quiet about his rant part. :)
 
#29
I've read the full thread and I'm going to share my opinion too.

This thread is fine, the people are fine, all the people.
The tone is fine too, no drama. I like everyone, Don C included.

This line couId have been construed with more elegance though, read positive:
"You are one very rich delusional idiot, like most on this site."

It was out of emotional control, defensive human instinct, not the end of the world. A small apology and Don is back? :b

Happy Thanksgiving.
 

PeterA

Active Member
Dec 7, 2011
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#30
sbo6, I appreciate your point of view. It was clearly an argument between me and Don and there is no reason to continue it with another member, so I will try not to be argumentative.

I have had nothing but great experiences with both Pass Labs and Reno HiFi. It is not clear if Don has or not had any direct experience with either business, but he surely had a lot to complain about. It is not often that members here start threads to complain about particular audio companies and their dealers, especially ones as respected and successful as Pass Labs and Reno HiFi. I wonder what the high end audio landscape would be like if more people went on forums and complained about audio companies, their gear, and how they do business. I think an argument could be made that it might help to change certain industry practices. The forums are where many small companies have direct exchanges with their customers. I wonder if Doc wrote to Mark Sammut to ask about his new published price policy.

I was inelegant in my efforts to ask Don to better explain his position. Perhaps I offended him because in the process of responding to me, not only did he denigrate the two businesses and their owners, but he also managed to insult me personally and many of the members as "rich delusional idiots". He failed to support those claims. Some of his other comments were deleted by the moderators. Did you happen to read them before they were deleted?

I can not speak for the other members who posted in this thread, but I think a portion of the them felt insulted and reacted in response to his comments. I suppose that near unanimity can be viewed as a gang action, but I honestly think that misconstrues the situation. Don was clearly not happy being a part of this forum and decided to leave the forum. I think he may have been sanctioned for his violation of the Terms of Service anyway, had he not first announced his departure, but I don't really know.

In hindsight, I think I took Don's complaints about the design of Pass gear, the business practices of Reno, and the relationships of their owners with each other and fellow dealers a bit too personally. These companies do not need me to defend them. And audio forums do not need individual members making denigrating and insulting comments toward individual members and the membership at large. I apologize for the tone of my posts to Don, and the attitude with which I expressed by frustration. Perhaps I spend too much time discussing things on audio forums and not enough time listening to music and enjoying my gear.
 

Al M.

VIP/Donor
Sep 10, 2013
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#31
I can not speak for the other members who posted in this thread, but I think a portion of the them felt insulted and reacted in response to his comments. I suppose that near unanimity can be viewed as a gang action, but I honestly think that misconstrues the situation.
I think so too.

Don was clearly not happy being a part of this forum and decided to leave the forum.
It seems unclear at this point if this thread caused Don to leave the forum, or if he had planned to do it anyway and just was looking for 'the final straw'. His responses appeared to express long-held opinions and griefs.

I apologize for the tone of my posts to Don, and the attitude with which I expressed by frustration. Perhaps I spend too much time discussing things on audio forums and not enough time listening to music and enjoying my gear.
You have nothing to apologize for, Peter. As others pointed out, your responses were admirably restrained, classy and dignified in the face of naked, cheap insult.
 

PeterA

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Dec 7, 2011
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#33
BTW, I don't understand either why Reno Hi-Fi took down all the prices from their website. Mark may have his reasons, such as the one Christian suggested:

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...-their-website&p=480124&viewfull=1#post480124
Al, I contacted Mark at Reno HiFi and asked him this very question, the subject of the thread. Christian had the answer, more or less, all along. Here is Marks response to me:

"Happy Thanksgiving Weekend Peter!

It’s always nice to hear from you and I’m happy to help with anything I can.

You have my permission to let the world know that that the reason I removed the prices from our website is that we want our clients and prospective clients to engage with us more. As I wrote on the website a long time ago “Reno Hi Fi is not a vending machine;” we want to help people get the amp that is really what they want for their application and tastes; and with a two-way discussion, I can better help audiophiles to this end."


Mark's communication is excellent and he is always willing to answer questions about Pass products. As I suspected, he is quite busy in his new facility. The website is being redesigned and will be updated. Pass has just released the new XP12 and XP22 preamps and the XP17 phono with the XP27 phono coming soon. I think these have some of the trickle down technology from the XS series. Exciting times for Pass fans.

I guess this answers Don's original question, though it does not address some of his other complaints. If he still has concerns, they may be best answered by Mark directly at Reno HiFi. Contact information is on the Reno HiFi website. He can also contact Pass Labs directly with technical questions. They are also very willing to talk on the phone or answer emails. As I wrote earlier, customer service is excellent with both companies.
 

BlueFox

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#34
Pass has just released the new XP12 and XP22 preamps and the XP17 phono with the XP27 phono coming soon. I think these have some of the trickle down technology from the XS series. Exciting times for Pass fans.
Maybe the XP22 might be worth investigating, especially if it is two chassis and will also use the DB-25 umbilical cord. Haven’t bought anything major since the S5s in February.
 

Al M.

VIP/Donor
Sep 10, 2013
3,886
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38
Greater Boston
#35
Al, I contacted Mark at Reno HiFi and asked him this very question, the subject of the thread. Christian had the answer, more or less, all along. Here is Marks response to me:

"Happy Thanksgiving Weekend Peter!

It’s always nice to hear from you and I’m happy to help with anything I can.

You have my permission to let the world know that that the reason I removed the prices from our website is that we want our clients and prospective clients to engage with us more. As I wrote on the website a long time ago “Reno Hi Fi is not a vending machine;” we want to help people get the amp that is really what they want for their application and tastes; and with a two-way discussion, I can better help audiophiles to this end."


Mark's communication is excellent and he is always willing to answer questions about Pass products. As I suspected, he is quite busy in his new facility. The website is being redesigned and will be updated. Pass has just released the new XP12 and XP22 preamps and the XP17 phono with the XP27 phono coming soon. I think these have some of the trickle down technology from the XS series. Exciting times for Pass fans.

I guess this answers Don's original question, though it does not address some of his other complaints. If he still has concerns, they may be best answered by Mark directly at Reno HiFi. Contact information is on the Reno HiFi website. He can also contact Pass Labs directly with technical questions. They are also very willing to talk on the phone or answer emails. As I wrote earlier, customer service is excellent with both companies.
Thanks, Peter, for the info. When I was ready to buy my Pass B1 buffered passive preamp, the price was still on the website. But I called Mark anyway because I had a few questions, which he answered in a fully satisfactory and indeed very friendly manner. He continued to be friendly throughout the entire transaction; it was very pleasant to do business with him. Plus, I am extremely happy with the Pass preramp.
 

PeterA

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#37

joeinid

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Mar 15, 2011
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#38
I think for the most part, Reno has the upper hand. I don’t believe Acoustic Sounds or others have much of a chance but I suspect things are slowly changing. I believe Mark does have great product knowledge being that’s his only line. He can offer a guide but only trying an actual piece in your system will reveal its true nature. Even though the amps are of similar basic design, I am positive each has its own sound signature.

Thanks Joe from posting this link. I did not know that acoustic sounds sells Pass gear. I wonder how they could compete with Reno HiFi given inventory, used/demo options, and Mark's incredible knowledge of the products.
 
Jul 21, 2013
118
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#39
Peter A

I am sorry for calling you an idiot. It was out of line.

However I do feel that you have limited experience with alternative types of less than super expensive equipment. You need to get out, and hear many more properly setup systems.

Have you any listening experience with tall panel speakers (electrostatic or magneplanar) in a home? You never discuss the sound field in your home. Does your soundstage extend beyond the walls?

You never seem discuss "projection" of sound toward the listener, in front of the speakers, or 3D imaging of vocals.

You turn our nose up at the recording quality of non classical music, as if you never listened to what most Americans did when you were young. You must have had a "sheltered" life.

You have an elitist view of audio, and have the common "group think" so prevalent on this site. "All super expensive equipment is the best! Period!"

That view is grossly unrealistic, and held by the many "inexperienced rich" on this site.

Enjoy your "midgets suspended in air" from tiny box speakers on stands.

I gave up on boxes decades ago, like I gave up on MM cartridges, when I went to MC.

2" Magico dome tweeters do not beat 5 foot long Magnepan ribbons EVER! I have never heard "magic" in Magic speakers IMO.

Last time I looked at a map there was no city named "Greater Boston", you eastern snob Al M.

I have no desire to visit Boston and meet Peter, Mad Floyd, or Al M.

Enjoy your delusions, all you folks on What's Best Forum.
 
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Jan 29, 2012
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#40
Don C you’re awesome. You apologize for insulting Peter and then re-insult him. Please don’t leave the forum again; I love your anger, jealously and irrational rantings.

2018 is going to be HUGELY successful for you, I just know it. Covfefe!!!
 
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