Reference Turntable, The Step Beyond

PeterA

Well-Known Member
Dec 7, 2011
8,202
4,336
920
North Shore of Boston
Hi,
I send you PM. Here is not right place i don't want distub

This thread is about the Micro Seiki top Tables and the other tables that were identified in the opening post as belonging to a particular high-level category. If you have information about the top big micro sake turntables, we would all appreciate reading about them here. I think the original post asked people to share their experience with these particular Micro Seiki turn tables.

In my opinion this could lead to some good discussion and learning.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ddk and Ron Resnick

DasguteOhr

Well-Known Member
Sep 26, 2013
186
120
290
Germany
Ok..here we go
Strengths,
very musical it spreads an inner calm in the music, I love it.he be able to play dynamically depending on which tonearm or cartridge you install.
he does not limited Carts or Tonearms alot of turntable do it.
8000 is relatively simple built stable base with a very good bearing and the sheer mass helps keep disturbances away.
he says no "here I am get out my way "he holds back and let the music flows.
It's difficult to talk about things that were twenty years ago.
Weakness,
I think the undamped platter is one thing,it has one advantage, it does not discolour the tones like the 5000 with the bronze plate.
you need a good mat the leather mat from Micro seiki is not good enough.
he still needs a suitable space, i have tried a lot as base wood, glass, metal.
the best for me is a 2 inch thick slab of slate that sounds great.
the internal damping of slate helps him to achieve more precision in the bass. the heights and the middle are a bit darker.
the stage is reproduced more accurately and individual musicians and instruments can be better located.
please excuse my english, i'm not really good at it. I hope I could help you with the 8000 micro seiki and its features.

Have a nice day, Stephan

P.S
Today i would add this air spring feets under the slate, this is a better Vibraplane trust me. It was my best hifi buy ever.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: bazelio and ddk

ddk

Industry Expert
May 19, 2013
5,448
2,457
770
Utah
Ok..here we go
Strengths,
very musical it spreads an inner calm in the music, I love it.he be able to play dynamically depending on which tonearm or cartridge you install.
he does not limited Carts or Tonearms alot of turntable do it.
8000 is relatively simple built stable base with a very good bearing and the sheer mass helps keep disturbances away.
he says no "here I am get out my way "he holds back and let the music flows.
It's difficult to talk about things that were twenty years ago.
Weakness,
I think the undamped platter is one thing,it has one advantage, it does not discolour the tones like the 5000 with the bronze plate.
you need a good mat the leather mat from Micro seiki is not good enough.
he still needs a suitable space, i have tried a lot as base wood, glass, metal.
the best for me is a 2 inch thick slab of slate that sounds great.
the internal damping of slate helps him to achieve more precision in the bass. the heights and the middle are a bit darker.
the stage is reproduced more accurately and individual musicians and instruments can be better located.
please excuse my english, i'm not really good at it. I hope I could help you with the 8000 micro seiki and its features.

Have a nice day, Stephan

P.S
Today i would add this air spring feets under the slate, this is a better Vibraplane trust me. It was my best hifi buy ever.
IME there are several major problems with air springs anywhere in the audio chain Stephan and particularly under high end high mass turntables like the 8000 which has been optimized in the bass region. First you're fighting a high mass design by lightening it up with air, 2nd air has a sound and a distinct sonic signature on sound when you trap it in a piece of rubber container and 3rd it's dampening with little control over it's sonic effect. Then there are the 3 states of bad, 1st, low volume sound will be dark with muddy bass. 2nd high volume the sound becomes compressed and tight. 3rd, the right volume, bass is still unnatural and tight and the sound boring and dead.

david
 

matakana

Active Member
Aug 26, 2020
100
49
30
58
UK
IME there are several major problems with air springs anywhere in the audio chain Stephan and particularly under high end high mass turntables like the 8000 which has been optimized in the bass region. First you're fighting a high mass design by lightening it up with air, 2nd air has a sound and a distinct sonic signature on sound when you trap it in a piece of rubber container and 3rd it's dampening with little control over it's sonic effect. Then there are the 3 states of bad, 1st, low volume sound will be dark with muddy bass. 2nd high volume the sound becomes compressed and tight. 3rd, the right volume, bass is still unnatural and tight and the sound boring and dead.

david

Well I have been using something a bit cruder, Air wedges, these lift the ref up at the front and the rear is on the mechanical grounding spike

So what does this bring to the table lol
They are so effective that the ref is greatly enhanced in particular dynamics ( volume decreased by 4 notches at desired level) musical flow, in particular placement and yes the bass now is not bloated as I found out it was, nuances like never before Front to back left to right improved, All for around a tenner!
Oh and The table integrated stand was always too low.
 

Attachments

  • F4FBBACA-DF61-4639-AD1E-7C16ECC7295C.jpeg
    F4FBBACA-DF61-4639-AD1E-7C16ECC7295C.jpeg
    571.5 KB · Views: 40
  • 594B0454-4CDC-44EA-8E78-0925CB385B7F.jpeg
    594B0454-4CDC-44EA-8E78-0925CB385B7F.jpeg
    577.5 KB · Views: 42

ddk

Industry Expert
May 19, 2013
5,448
2,457
770
Utah
Well I have been using something a bit cruder, Air wedges, these lift the ref up at the front and the rear is on the mechanical grounding spike

So what does this bring to the table lol
They are so effective that the ref is greatly enhanced in particular dynamics ( volume decreased by 4 notches at desired level) musical flow, in particular placement and yes the bass now is not bloated as I found out it was, nuances like never before Front to back left to right improved, All for around a tenner!
Oh and The table integrated stand was always too low.
You're confirming what I wrote about tightening up the bass and the overall sound, we just have different tastes. I love the Goldmund just as it is and never found it's bass bloated or lacking dynamics.

david
PS Very novel and interesting use of Air Wedges!
 
Last edited:

matakana

Active Member
Aug 26, 2020
100
49
30
58
UK
You're confirming what I wrote about tightening up the bass and the overall sound, we just have different tastes. I love the Goldmund just as it is and never found it's bass bloated or lacking dynamics.

david
PS Very novel and interesting use of Air Wedges!

You would if you could hear the differences and can be done in seconds !
 

ddk

Industry Expert
May 19, 2013
5,448
2,457
770
Utah
You would if you could hear the differences and can be done in seconds !
I have years of experience with air bags and am intimately familiar with using air and controlling it in audio use :).

david
 

matakana

Active Member
Aug 26, 2020
100
49
30
58
UK
I have years of experience with air bags and am intimately familiar with using air and controlling it in audio use :).

david

Who would have ever thought!

You know theres nothing much gets me excited reaching my 60s however this does float my Goldmund.
 

DasguteOhr

Well-Known Member
Sep 26, 2013
186
120
290
Germany
IME there are several major problems with air springs anywhere in the audio chain Stephan and particularly under high end high mass turntables like the 8000 which has been optimized in the bass region. First you're fighting a high mass design by lightening it up with air, 2nd air has a sound and a distinct sonic signature on sound when you trap it in a piece of rubber container and 3rd it's dampening with little control over it's sonic effect. Then there are the 3 states of bad, 1st, low volume sound will be dark with muddy bass. 2nd high volume the sound becomes compressed and tight. 3rd, the right volume, bass is still unnatural and tight and the sound boring and dead.

david
I've had the concept in operation since 2010, four of my friends also have it in operation, two Raven AC, Platine Verdier, Audiolabor Konstant.
Everyone is happy with it, I have never heard a bad bass.
It doesn't cost much 500-600 €, 3 air springs and slate plate.
Load each air spring with at least 35kg and listen. To be on the safe side, put three metal tubes over the air spring so that nothing happens in the event of air loss.
Check every 6 weeks whether the air springs still have the optimum operating height of 65mm.
20210205_075007.jpg 20210205_075152.jpg 49831-ea22261c-medium.jpg
Specs Air Spring

Test it works real good, it is my Best Buy ever.
P.S
a Open Baffle Bass is never boring, you must know you have it too.
You can't hear the Rubberfeet,why?
You couple hard the Turntable at the Slate plate
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: matakana

matakana

Active Member
Aug 26, 2020
100
49
30
58
UK
I've had the concept in operation since 2010, four of my friends also have it in operation, two Raven AC, Platine Verdier, Audiolabor Konstant.
Everyone is happy with it, I have never heard a bad bass.
It doesn't cost much 500-600 €, 3 air springs and slate plate.
Load each air spring with at least 35kg and listen. To be on the safe side, put three metal tubes over the air spring so that nothing happens in the event of air loss.
Check every 6 weeks whether the air springs still have the optimum operating height of 65mm.
View attachment 74588 View attachment 74589 View attachment 74592
Specs Air Spring

Test it works real good, it is my Best Buy ever.
P.S
a Open Baffle Bass is never boring, you must know you have it too.
You can't hear the Rubberfeet,why?
You couple hard the Turntable at the Slate plate

 
  • Like
Reactions: DasguteOhr

ddk

Industry Expert
May 19, 2013
5,448
2,457
770
Utah
I've had the concept in operation since 2010, four of my friends also have it in operation, two Raven AC, Platine Verdier, Audiolabor Konstant.
Everyone is happy with it, I have never heard a bad bass.
It doesn't cost much 500-600 €, 3 air springs and slate plate.
Load each air spring with at least 35kg and listen. To be on the safe side, put three metal tubes over the air spring so that nothing happens in the event of air loss.
Check every 6 weeks whether the air springs still have the optimum operating height of 65mm
Specs Air Spring

Test it works real good, it is my Best Buy ever.
P.S
a Open Baffle Bass is never boring, you must know you have it too.
You can't hear the Rubberfeet,why?
You couple hard the Turntable at the Slate plate
Question isn't wether air suspension works or not it's about how it work and the effect it has on sound. We agree that air can "dampen and tighten up" the overall sound when used correctly, where we differ is our starting points which is our systems and setup or perhaps even what we consider as better sound.

I'm not a stranger to air suspension, I manufacture air floating turntables and racks and owned the Micro Seiki platforms, like the BA-100/BA-600 along with several racks and had high end lab air suspension tables under all my turntables and even AF-1 turntable with built-in air bladders. The effects on the sound are always the same every time and I never once liked it. I used the lab tables and MS platforms in the pictures deflated just for their mass and this goes back to the 90's over 20 years ago, nothing new about any of this stuff or honestly anything related to high end audio.

BA-100-&-600.jpg

Kinetic Systems.jpg

david
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: amadeus and Lagonda

DasguteOhr

Well-Known Member
Sep 26, 2013
186
120
290
Germany
Question isn't wether air suspension works or not it's about how it work and the effect it has on sound. We agree that air can "dampen and tighten up" the overall sound when used correctly, where we differ is our starting points which is our systems and setup or perhaps even what we consider as better sound.
Agree, when i saw your System the first Time, i think you want only listen good music on highest level as possible, not of the hunt of the last percent dynamic and resoluton.
Please don't get it wrong, I recognized it from your tonearms and pickups that you love and what you write about them. I haven't gotten to that point yet. i'm still hunting.
I'm not a stranger to air suspension, I manufacture air floating turntables and racks and owned all the Micro Seiki platforms, like the BA-100/BA-600 along with several racks and had high end lab air suspension tables under all my turntables and even AF-1 turntable with built-in air bladders. The effects are always the same and I never once liked it and always deflated the air system and not don't even use the bases.

View attachment 74608

View attachment 74609

david
I know that, I don't want to lecture you, because you definitely have better access to good equipment than I do. I just wanted to say slate isreally a good base, whether with air springs or not. I have a question for you about AS Turntable. i saw a photo of a flywheel motor how much mass and rpm it works? I hope this is not a trade secret. I would be happy to receive an answer.
Thats all back to on topic

A Friend have created a really good DIY Turntabe heavy platter , 19kg Flywhell/800rpm with Revox R2R Motor.
76947-7e65c120-large.jpeg
 
  • Like
Reactions: matakana and tima

ddk

Industry Expert
May 19, 2013
5,448
2,457
770
Utah
Agree, when i saw your System the first Time, i think you want only listen good music on highest level as possible, not of the hunt of the last percent dynamic and resoluton.
Please don't get it wrong, I recognized it from your tonearms and pickups that you love and what you write about them. I haven't gotten to that point yet. i'm still hunting.

I know that, I don't want to lecture you, because you definitely have better access to good equipment than I do. I just wanted to say slate isreally a good base, whether with air springs or not. I have a question for you about AS Turntable. i saw a photo of a flywheel motor how much mass and rpm it works? I hope this is not a trade secret. I would be happy to receive an answer.
Thats all back to on topic

A Friend have created a really good DIY Turntabe heavy platter , 19kg Flywhell/800rpm with Revox R2R Motor.
View attachment 74618
Flywheel mass is 5kg and max 1280rpm at 78 platter rpm.

david
 
  • Like
Reactions: DasguteOhr

DasguteOhr

Well-Known Member
Sep 26, 2013
186
120
290
Germany
Flywheel mass is 5kg and set for max 1280rpm at 78 platter rpm.

david
Thank you David,nice weekend for you
 
  • Like
Reactions: ddk

microstrip

VIP/Donor
May 30, 2010
17,701
2,238
810
Portugal
(...) A Friend have created a really good DIY Turntabe heavy platter , 19kg Flywhell/800rpm with Revox R2R Motor.
View attachment 74618
One usual issue with high mass flywheels is that they take long a long time to start. The Forsell air bearing took around 30 seconds to stabilize.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DasguteOhr

Solypsa

Well-Known Member
Jun 7, 2017
631
354
145
Seattle
www.solypsa.com
A Friend have created a really good DIY Turntabe heavy platter , 19kg Flywhell/800rpm with Revox R2R Motor.
View attachment 74618
One cannot know how such a diy effort sounds based on pictures, however the design is elegant and finished very nicely. I like it!
 

DasguteOhr

Well-Known Member
Sep 26, 2013
186
120
290
Germany
One usual issue with high mass flywheels is that they take long a long time to start. The Forsell air bearing took around 30 seconds to stabilize.
normal, as long as you are not a DJ ok ,my tube amp needs 15 minutes until it sounds really good.
when it is up to speed, cannot be stopped you can hear almost a whole song when the motor is off....haha
 

About us

  • What’s Best Forum is THE forum for high end audio, product reviews, advice and sharing experiences on the best of everything else. This is THE place where audiophiles and audio companies discuss vintage, contemporary and new audio products, music servers, music streamers, computer audio, digital-to-analog converters, turntables, phono stages, cartridges, reel-to-reel tape machines, speakers, headphones and tube and solid-state amplification. Founded in 2010 What’s Best Forum invites intelligent and courteous people of all interests and backgrounds to describe and discuss the best of everything. From beginners to life-long hobbyists to industry professionals, we enjoy learning about new things and meeting new people, and participating in spirited debates.

Quick Navigation

User Menu

Steve Williams
Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator
Ron Resnick
Site Co-Owner | Administrator
Julian (The Fixer)
Website Build | Marketing Managersing