Preamp shootout...Predictions on which will be the best?

[Atmasphere]

@Atmasphere Given your experience designing and manufacturing very well-regarded amps/preamps, you are clearly making this statement with a lot of experience. But I'm puzzled by the performance of the digital attenuator in my DAC going straight to the amps (same manufacturer). Together, they produce a very alive, live-like presentation with plenty of dynamics. Since I haven't tried the Mola Mola preamp, I don't have a comparator however. Thoughts?

Most DACs require an output buffer of some sort because the DAC output level internally is quite low. So it has to be boosted to meet Redbook standards. Do you know for sure this isn't happening in your DAC?

 

[PYP]

Most DACs require an output buffer of some sort because the DAC output level internally is quite low. So it has to be boosted to meet Redbook standards. Do you know for sure this isn't happening in your DAC?

from one review:

The first printed circuit board (PCB) has discrete input paths for PCM and DSD signals, each of which feeds a sixth-order Chebyshev polynomial interpolator, upsampling the signal to 32-bit/3.125MHz before the signal is bifurcated and converted to a noise-shaped pulse-width-modulation signal. That PWM signal is then run through a pair of monaural, 32-stage DAC chips that convert it to analog just before reaching the Tambaqui’s balanced outputs. Volume control is managed in the digital domain using dithering, which “converts quantization distortion into pure, constant low-level noise.”

 

[PYP]

 

[Atmasphere]

from one review:

The first printed circuit board (PCB) has discrete input paths for PCM and DSD signals, each of which feeds a sixth-order Chebyshev polynomial interpolator, upsampling the signal to 32-bit/3.125MHz before the signal is bifurcated and converted to a noise-shaped pulse-width-modulation signal. That PWM signal is then run through a pair of monaural, 32-stage DAC chips that convert it to analog just before reaching the Tambaqui’s balanced outputs. Volume control is managed in the digital domain using dithering, which “converts quantization distortion into pure, constant low-level noise.”

Looks nice. How does it achieve a balanced output? That suggests an active circuit is involved. The output level, 18dBu, supports that idea as well. Their website doesn't say one way or the other.

 

[PYP]

Looks nice. How does it achieve a balanced output? That suggests an active circuit is involved. The output level, 18dBu, supports that idea as well. Their website doesn't say one way or the other.

you are asking the wrong person. I tried finding more information about that specific question but couldn't find anything.

 

[Atmasphere]

you are asking the wrong person. I tried finding more information about that specific question but couldn't find anything.

Well, given the output level they state, its unlikely this is a passive control system. It doesn't say anything about it being passive on their website. There is gain after the the final conversion. So this too is an example of an active circuit working well.

 

[Holmz]

What does @Ricky64 want to run a preamp?
if it is just a digital source, then there is no need to switch inputs.

 

[Ricky64]

What does @Ricky64 want to run a preamp?
if it is just a digital source, then there is no need to switch inputs.

TV and Digital. I will likely get a cheap Dac for the TV, and run analog into the preamp, so that I have one remote controlling volume and input. Currently, both are running through the Grimm, and I have used this for the volume control. The Thrax and Soulnote should arrive this week.

 

[Holmz]

TV and Digital. I will likely get a cheap Dac for the TV, and run analog into the preamp, so that I have one remote controlling volume and input. Currently, both are running through the Grimm, and I have used this for the volume control. The Thrax and Soulnote should arrive this week.

Crickey… It is worse than I thought

I also have a 2-channel and HT hybrid. IMO That makes it much more difficult.
luckily my preamp has a “pass through”, so when it is off, the HT pre (AVP) just routes through the preamp and gets to the amp(s).

As good or bad as people like to rave about the sound, and which preamp is the best… there is also convenience to consider.
i think I have a solid setup, and would find it quite a challenge to figure out what else to do in order to mix 2ch and HT.

(They’re generally a bitch of a thing to do well. IMO)

 

[PYP]

TV and Digital. I will likely get a cheap Dac for the TV, and run analog into the preamp, so that I have one remote controlling volume and input. Currently, both are running through the Grimm, and I have used this for the volume control. The Thrax and Soulnote should arrive this week.

the Soulnote looks like a beautiful beast. And so much technology. Looking forward to your impressions.

 

[stehno]

It is easy to peek under the Oppo's lid and see how little connection to reality this fantasy bears.

...

Well, I suppose we all have our fantasies to bear. But presumably the important thing in perhaps any performance-oriented industry is, who bears more or less fantasies.

And words can be so cheap, right? Hopefully, you realize there is an easier way that your mere words to discern which of us might suffer more from a reality disconnect/bearing fantasies.

For example. Perhaps you have in your library this somewhat dynamic piece. If so, and if you were to record an in-room video and then post your video here, I venture I could use the contrasts between the two to better illustrate various sonic attributes that I tried to describe in my comments above.

Or perhaps you've got another more complex and/or dynamic piece in mind?

 

[Ricky64]

If we could move the oppo discussion to another thread...

 

[Ricky64]

Soulnote P-3 in the house today. Appreciate the great service and enthusiasm by Nick and the crew at TMRAudio here near Boulder.
Initial impressions are very favorable. Soundstage very tall and wide. I'm most impressed by micro and macro dynamics and image texture/timbre. I do not sense any loss of detail. Extremely pleasing tonal qualities, veering to slight warmth. The soundstage is pretty dramatically shifted forward. This is a bit of a challenge as, even though the room is large, my system and seating are constrained to a more nearfield arrangement. I have also lost depth of imaging. If additional break in and speaker placement adjustments can restore some of the soundstage depth, this will be a keeper. Soulnote was recommended by some folks working with YG as being "unique and very special". I would agree. It is possible that this pre might work better in a larger room, with a more distant seating position. I do love the palpable, pleasing tone and texture though.

 

[Ricky64]

Regretting the dramatic title to this thread... a better one might have been "Introducing a pre amp to my system". I was so resistant, feeling like a pre must be a conflict of interest conspiracy theory designed to induce sales. (I felt the same way about the whole "gravel bike" concept in the cycling industry. Have to say, my gravel bike is my favorite possession now!) Adding the SoulNote P-3 has dramatically improved the system.
I think a pre is adding something to the sound to fine tune the "illusion" of music and sound that fits the listener's needs, without straying too far from accuracy. The variables and subjectivity are what drives the passion and knowledge of this hobby!
Back to the P-3, Speaker placement adjustment has improved depth of imaging, although I feel this might be a weakness. Difficult right now how to assess whether the P-3 is a great pre, or just the presence of any pre amp is an improvement. It does have a very large 2D soundstage, excellent dynamics, and beautiful rendering of instruments and voices. No loss of detail I can detect, in spite of a sense of warmth.
At this point, I've decided not to add the Thrax. I'm guessing it is quite good, but lack of local dealer, resale, fewer attenuation steps, and some other variables have made this less attractive to me. I'm going to put an Aesthetix Metis into the system next week. The Soulution 725 has fallen through. Additional local candidates include a Soulution 525, CH1 L1, Accuphase C2900. TMR audio nearby has a Pilium Alexander that is intriguing. Since seeing Spectral stuff at Progressive Audio in Columbus Ohio I've always wanted a Spectral pre. I hold Christian Punter of HiFi Advice in high regard. He really liked the Spectral. But one of these would be over a year off on order.
All that being said, I could live happily with the SoulNote that is in the system right now. It is quite good! I am busy and not a tinkerer, so much additional substitution has diminishing returns for me.
Thanks for reading!

(System Grimm Mu1-->Mola Mola Tambaqui-->Gryphon Essence Stereo Amp-->Rockport Atria ii's. Cabling Tara Labs 0.8

 

[antigrunge]

I went from Accuphase C200 to Graaf 13.5b while I was still predominantly listening to Vinyl. It all changed when I got the Audio Aero Capitle Mk3 as a CD player. It had a great analogue section which I further upgrated with better transistors and capacitors. I now go direct via an Antelope Zodiac Platinum fed by a Sean Jacobs DC3/4 and clocked by an Antelope Audiophile clock. Admittedly on vinyl, the preamp still has a role, on Digital with a competent design of analogue stage and attenuator it adds nothing but distortion. If a preamp is needed, the best I heard was a Wavac (>$30,000) which nicely complemented my EC300b, but again added nothing useful to digital, (mind it was the least noxious…) I acknowledge that every system is different, but good dac analogue stages and preamps are nothing but duplication of identical functions in a system and therefore to be avoided.

 

[Rexp]

Regretting the dramatic title to this thread... a better one might have been "Introducing a pre amp to my system". I was so resistant, feeling like a pre must be a conflict of interest conspiracy theory designed to induce sales. (I felt the same way about the whole "gravel bike" concept in the cycling industry. Have to say, my gravel bike is my favorite possession now!) Adding the SoulNote P-3 has dramatically improved the system.
I think a pre is adding something to the sound to fine tune the "illusion" of music and sound that fits the listener's needs, without straying too far from accuracy. The variables and subjectivity are what drives the passion and knowledge of this hobby!
Back to the P-3, Speaker placement adjustment has improved depth of imaging, although I feel this might be a weakness. Difficult right now how to assess whether the P-3 is a great pre, or just the presence of any pre amp is an improvement. It does have a very large 2D soundstage, excellent dynamics, and beautiful rendering of instruments and voices. No loss of detail I can detect, in spite of a sense of warmth.
At this point, I've decided not to add the Thrax. I'm guessing it is quite good, but lack of local dealer, resale, fewer attenuation steps, and some other variables have made this less attractive to me. I'm going to put an Aesthetix Metis into the system next week. The Soulution 725 has fallen through. Additional local candidates include a Soulution 525, CH1 L1, Accuphase C2900. TMR audio nearby has a Pilium Alexander that is intriguing. Since seeing Spectral stuff at Progressive Audio in Columbus Ohio I've always wanted a Spectral pre. I hold Christian Punter of HiFi Advice in high regard. He really liked the Spectral. But one of these would be over a year off on order.
All that being said, I could live happily with the SoulNote that is in the system right now. It is quite good! I am busy and not a tinkerer, so much additional substitution has diminishing returns for me.
Thanks for reading!

(System Grimm Mu1-->Mola Mola Tambaqui-->Gryphon Essence Stereo Amp-->Rockport Atria ii's. Cabling Tara Labs 0.8

Maybe a new server would add more value:

BAETIS AUDIO REFERENCE 4 MINGO STREAMER - REVIEW — AUDIOKEY REVIEWS

The Baetis Audio Reference 4 Mingo demonstrated the ability to be more “alive,” more real, and more natural than any digital component should have a right to be. Furthermore, it is the only streamer to have relegated to obscurity the best of the best CD players, which a short time ago I did not beli

www.audiokeyreviews.com

 

[Holmz]

Maybe a new server would add more value:

BAETIS AUDIO REFERENCE 4 MINGO STREAMER - REVIEW — AUDIOKEY REVIEWS

The Baetis Audio Reference 4 Mingo demonstrated the ability to be more “alive,” more real, and more natural than any digital component should have a right to be. Furthermore, it is the only streamer to have relegated to obscurity the best of the best CD players, which a short time ago I did not beli

www.audiokeyreviews.com

Except the whole idea, or a lot of the idea of a preamp… is that one can change sources.
it is was dedicated to exclusively playing digital, then we could get by without a preamp.

so if a TV or something else is playing, then one get no value out of the other sources without being able to select them.

 

[Rexp]

Except the whole idea, or a lot of the idea of a preamp… is that one can change sources.
it is was dedicated to exclusively playing digital, then we could get by without a preamp.

so if a TV or something else is playing, then one get no value out of the other sources without being able to select them.

The OP mentioned no need for multiple inputs.

 

[Ricky64]

Three inputs actually. One for streaming. One for TV. One waiting for phono in future.
Why the Baetis?

 

[Rexp]

Three inputs actually. One for streaming. One for TV. One waiting for phono in future.
Why the Baetis?

The source is always the most important and the reviewer has the MU1 and Tambaqui so thought you may be interested.