Noise. That damned demon you may not even know about...

[wil]

Had identical plan few months ago , but no time to make it happen.
5000 is probably best in regards to the theoretical power needs, but newer version ( 2) has AC connecting points much less quality then the version 1.
I was thinking about the higher spec version 8000 and 10.000 as they could have much higher specs with my power hungry monos and their power attachment points are much larger for AC.
Also it could make a great sense as the voltage will remain much more stabile.
We should keep in mind that the regular power line can deliver a LOT of Amps in peaks, so the higher the better, but this needs to be tested.
The battery must be LiFepo4 with hight quality as you mentioned.
Also here the more Amps the better.
For 10.000 Quattro version I was told the best would be 3x 200 Amps at 48 V to handle everything
(house if needed) so 600 A battery pack. But again 200 A might be good to start testing and add more if there is any need.

Why I believe the more the better? I had the StromTank 5000 for many months in my system that was never able to deliver the good sound fully off grid ( green light) , but when it was on line ( blue light) it sounded much better than a grid itself.
Stromtank 5k has 750VA continuous power. This is not much for amps.
Hight power version has 1500VA.
Victron quattro 10k version is rated 10.000 VA continuous at 230V,
8000 Watts continuous, 20.000 Watts peak.

Victron is one of the very best here in Europe with very low THD .
Both Multiplus and Quattro are great.
Their THD is much lower than listed in manual at lower loads.

Please keep us updated with your progress. I hope you can set your off grid for stereo soon.

The Exeltech mp2000 has less than 1% THD. I think the Victron is over 3%? My system only uses about 400 watts, so the Exceltech has plenty of headroom for me.

I wonder if two Exeltechs could connected in parallel to provide 4k watts? (I have no idea.)

 

[Kris]

The Exeltech mp2000 has less than 1% THD. I think the Victron is over 3%? My system only uses about 400 watts, so the Exceltech has plenty of headroom for me.

I wonder if two Exeltechs could connected in parallel to provide 4k watts? (I have no idea.)

But how do you like it in comparison to the grid ?
Could you please elaborate more of gains / loses with Exeltech use ?
This is important as few might jump in based on your opinion and test other solutions,
we will all benefit from it.

2000 W is ok , but not at the level of the regular socket that here is about 3650 W.
But again Victron can deliver 10 x more than Excel in a peak (20 kW)
This might be a very big deal for amplifiers and for many other components as many are having extreme large power supplys this days.

 

[Kris]

Noise between equipment is a very real thing. How detrimental is that noise. What frequency is it at.

One benefit of battery power is you can almost completely isolate equipment from the road, as well as each other.

But to Kris's point, does it still have drive. I too believe bigger is better. Maybe. I heard a Tesla Powerwall feeding a stereo. It was different than the road. It was a brief listen. I thought it sounded very close, but maybe a bit slickery. Maybe less percussive drive. I don't have much faith in a powerwall. It's built to power a house. Not a stereo.

I think a 3000 watt inverter to a Torus RM20 will be enough, but I may go 5000 watt. Its the weight. 5000 watts is 72 lbs. And it still needs a enclosure with fans, , disconnect switches and receptacle.

And to Elliots point,what about the load out cable. Who is going to make that for me. I want to tie it directly to a Hifi Supreme cartridge fuse. I want a hard wired #10 from the inverter to a IEC. From there it can plug into anything. But multiple people having tried all sorts of Puritan, Shunyata, AQ and other filters come back to a isolation transformer. I have heard this from 5 or 6 different people.

FWIW, I have made some pretty long power cables simply by using solid #10, twisting it 1 turn every 2 inches, the ground loose, mylar over the top, 20 awg dead soft silver wrapping the mylar down with tech flex over the cable, terminated into a gold Furutech cord and iec. Damb good for all of $240 for a 30 foot cable. I actually made this cable as stated, plugged it into my Torus and landed in a Furutech Rhodium NCF duplex and use 2 power cables from the guy who made my monoblock amps. Its the best my amps have ever played.

I tested isolation between components with purchesing 7 separate balanced trafos .
One for each component. It was better but not a lot . Still have those if someone wants to test it.

Much bigger difference was when isolation was tested with Transparent Audio Isolators.
I used Reference Isolator that had 4 separate banks of isolation and Opus Isolator that had 2 separate isolated sockets. Both extremely good and effective, but extremely expensive at the same time .
Also Opus powercord was used.

Cost of one Opus Isolator with only 2 sockets could pay for a Victron with battery for a big system.

 

[microstrip]

Imagine an audiophile finds a lamp, rubs it and asks the genie for a battery operated mains generator for his system. The genie acknowledges to get the device, but says - Perfect, just write me down me all the important specifications and quantify their limits. What will you write?

BTW, ChatGPT advised me to forget about genies and try a Bluetti Elite 200 V2 Portable Power Station (230V/50Hz) ...

 

[Kingrex]

Haaa. Funny Micro. My thread on Battery Power has a few people that used those things. They are shockingly good. But not quite as good as well done mains.

All move on the Exeltech or Victron. And some back around to mains with a filter they like.

Kris, isolation transformer are only good with noise above say 20,000 hertz. Maybe 50,000 is the lowest level. Other filters come on pretty good at 10,000 hertz. Maybe less.

But, what noise is the noise that causes issues. What noise do most equipment power supplies filter well. There are people on this forum that understand well how certain frequency of noise affect equipment. I have noticed RF or high frequency in mega and giga hertz create a veil. I don't really know what the 3rd, 5th etc fundimentado120 volt 60 hertz do to sonics. I assume they lower the overall power the gear sees if the noise rags the top and bottom of the fundimental wave enough. But I don't know I can say I have listened to hear what that damge is. I don't know how to. As soon as you add any filter, your covering a spectrum that encompasses a lot of other noise.

I have always heard a filter. But very few filters do much to correct the sine wave on the load side from low frequency noise. Like 3rds and 5ths of the 60 hertz . And some send massive noise back onto the branch feeding it.

Yet, once the branch terminates into a panel, the bus, feeder cable and so on seem to absorb a lot. It may be 7.5% on the branch leg. Yet 3.2 in the main panel. And 3.2 on a different branch. A big reason to have multiple circuits to the room. IMO.
Or maybe multiple battery systems. Who knows. Depends on the system and environment.

 

[AudioHR]

I'm not sure how many points of entry are available for noise pollution in my system but I do know that addressing different areas have given excellent results in the SQ from the reduction of some of them. This for me is/was you don't know what you don't know until you know something .
I have been familiar with power cords and power conditioning devices and a bit of grounding but I had never done a serious deep dive into the unknown. This started for me with Grant Samuelson approaching me to represent the brand again. He came and visited and we had an interesting discussion followed by him doing a couple of demonstrations with power cords stuck directly into outlets in my sound room. This was done in conjunction with a device that let you hear the noise on the line, sorry don't know what it is called and I did not stay in a Holiday Inn express that night!
This demo led to my starting a electrical, digital, mechanical and grounding deep dive into my room and system that was far more targeted than just adding a few products and doo dads. I don't want to minimize room noise as well but this is a different topic.
I was not a big fan of power conditioners since they removed and changed iMO the signal so that it was better and worse at the same time. I had tried many. I had read that network signals were full of noise and I again had tried a few gizmos that changed the signal but did not totally cure the disease and perhaps made it worse. I did not totally understand grounding and what there was to achieve and had really only explored mechanical isolation to a point. This I was successful in realizing there was a significant difference to be gained. The last which was totally unknown to me was the noise generated by he signal as it moves trough the gear and wires.

Every system and user is going to come into obstacles. These will vary to some degree in various environments and with different gear ( i assume)
What I said about you don't know what you don't know until you do is a hard pill to swallow and to wrap your audio head around along with your audio wallet. In my experience every one wants the silver bullet cure however that one gizmo to fix it all has not yet come down the pipe.
Some noise is easier to understand and control than others. My system is only digital and I would suspect if you have both analog and digital there probably are some interactions that can make those not work at full strength together.
By the way is is far more than dark backgrounds as that is just one type of noise, as I said you don't know until you know.
Good hunting folks

I like this post.

There is something to noise pollution for sure, it is worth pursing its reduction.

Still the comment about the elusive silver bullet and your audio wallet rings true to me! Personally if I felt my hi end system was already achieving all that it could I would enthusiastically explore this area. Otherwise I would be looking at further system upgrades/integration and room issues.

 

[Kingrex]

I like this post.

There is something to noise pollution for sure, it is worth pursing its reduction.

Still the comment about the elusive silver bullet and your audio wallet rings true to me! Personally if I felt my hi end system was already achieving all that it could I would enthusiastically explore this area. Otherwise I would be looking at further system upgrades/integration and room issues.

You can get rid of a crap load of noise cleaning and reorganizing your electrical power. As well as optimizing the grounding and bonding.of panels and audio feeders and branch circuits. Oxidation makes a very parasitic and audible sound. Its a very hashy/simbilance that is very offputting.

 

[Kingrex]

I would double down and say, before you waste money on cables and power conditioners, address your electrical infrastructure first. Its a much bigger gain than you might realize. All the way from the service meter to the IEC into your equipment. Everything inbetween should be cleaned, optimized in its installation and torqued properly. I would also do all the speaker and signal cables. And digital LPS and cables, modem, switch etc.

By clean, I use.Caig Deoxit G100 and D100. As well as the GN5S and DN5S sprays. Depends on what I'm doing, what the plating is and the tarnish level.

 

[Elliot G.]

I like this post.

There is something to noise pollution for sure, it is worth pursing its reduction.

Still the comment about the elusive silver bullet and your audio wallet rings true to me! Personally if I felt my hi end system was already achieving all that it could I would enthusiastically explore this area. Otherwise I would be looking at further system upgrades/integration and room issues.

Some of what I found changed my opinion of the gear so its certainly worth looking into. I wish you luck finding the silver bullet lol , room and system set up are certainly on the top of the list for best results and are easily the best value for dollars invested IMO

 

[Kingrex]

I was recently introduced to Inter Dental tooth brush as a cleaner. They are very slender picks with bristles. They come small enough to easily fit in a preamp tube socket. You can take a very small amount of cotton and spin it into the bristles. This allows one to use a deoxit in the pin holes to clean the oxidation, as well as wipe it out of the hole. All Deoxit should be applied, then wiped off. If you don't wipe it off, your leaving the oxidation in suspension to only settle back onto the metal. You have to wipe it away. Cotton does a good job of wiping off the lifted contaminants. I usually do multiple passes. If I am doing the bus on a panel, I will apply maybe 7 to 10 coats over 2 days to really clean the metal and remove the oxidation. Power plugs and iec take maybe 3 to 4 passed the first time. Then once or twice a year I go over them using a QTip.

 

[treitz3]

My neighbor suggested just that a couple of months ago. He has a stash of them somewhere in his 9 car garage that is completely filled with tools, but he can't seem to find them. Do you have a source of where you got yours and what sizes did you order? I would like to do the insides of a female IEC but haven't ran across anything yet that could clean them without damaging them.

[EDIT:] I found some on Amazon, but my neighbor described something a little bit different. The ones I saw there were more dental picks and brushes. He described something more along the lines of a small, flat and very fine file that would fit perfectly inside of the female IEC slots.

Tom

 

[oldvinyl]

My neighbor suggested just that a couple of months ago. He has a stash of them somewhere in his 9 car garage that is completely filled with tools, but he can't seem to find them. Do you have a source of where you got yours and what sizes did you order? I would like to do the insides of a female IEC but haven't ran across anything yet that could clean them without damaging them.

[EDIT:] I found some on Amazon, but my neighbor described something a little bit different. The ones I saw there were more dental picks and brushes. He described something more along the lines of a small, flat and very fine file that would fit perfectly inside of the female IEC slots.

Tom

I use these for 9 pin tube sockets: interdental brush

I use pipe cleaners for octal sockets and female end of IEC (while unplugged obviously): pipe cleaner

For sockets I learned the hard way to not use DeOxit. The residual is usually impossible to get out. Over time it will build up and get gummy or sticky. Instead, use isopropyl alcohol or KonTak: KonTak

Power plug (male end) I use Flitz and a paper towel: Flitz

DeOxit is great when you can remove its residue. Otherwise, it will gunk up any socket or connector.

My style of contact treatment is periodic cleaning.

 

[DasguteOhr]

I use these for 9 pin tube sockets: interdental brush

I use pipe cleaners for octal sockets and female end of IEC (while unplugged obviously): pipe cleaner

For sockets I learned the hard way to not use DeOxit. The residual is usually impossible to get out. Over time it will build up and get gummy or sticky. Instead, use isopropyl alcohol or KonTak: KonTak

Power plug (male end) I use Flitz and a paper towel: Flitz

DeOxit is great when you can remove its residue. Otherwise, it will gunk up any socket or connector.

My style of contact treatment is periodic cleaning.

+1
Brushes set i use different sizes

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TePe Zahnzwischenraumbürsten (Interdentalbürsten). Zur Übersicht hier die verfügbaren Sorten - die zur Auswahl stehen TePe gelb 0,7mm. Nachricht senden. TePe blau 0,6mm. Zufriedene Kunden sind uns sehr wichtig.

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DeOxit is bad idea for tube sockets It creeps in everywhere and attracts dirt. Due to heat, it eventually becomes a viscous mass. The only way to get it out is to desolder it, then use an ultrasonic bath with harsh cleaners. I use only isopropanol and distilled water

 

[Kingrex]

+1
Brushes set i use different sizes

Zahnzwischenraumbürsten Interdentalbürsten TEPE - wählen Sie die Größe selbst | eBay.de

TePe Zahnzwischenraumbürsten (Interdentalbürsten). Zur Übersicht hier die verfügbaren Sorten - die zur Auswahl stehen TePe gelb 0,7mm. Nachricht senden. TePe blau 0,6mm. Zufriedene Kunden sind uns sehr wichtig.

www.ebay.de

DeOxit is bad idea for tube sockets It creeps in everywhere and attracts dirt. Due to heat, it eventually becomes a viscous mass. The only way to get it out is to desolder it, then use an ultrasonic bath with harsh cleaners. I use only isopropanol and distilled water

I don't believe this is true. Are we talking Caig Deoxit G100. Wiped on thin, then wiped clean.
I have intentionally slopped it on the base of an 845 tube, then wiped it off as it should be. I have never heard any sign of arching. I have never seen any build up or scorching on pins. Quite the opposite. They are clean.
I use it on all tube pins.

But this is also why I am saying to use cotton in the bristles to remove any build up.

Yes, I have seen built up excess attract contaminats. That is why I say, wiipe it clean. Its still there. But you should not see it.

 

[DasguteOhr]

I don't believe this is true. Are we talking Caig Deoxit G100. Wiped on thin, then wiped clean.
I have intentionally slopped it on the base of an 845 tube, then wiped it off as it should be. I have never heard any sign of arching. I have never seen any build up or scorching on pins. Quite the opposite. They are clean.
I use it on all tube pins.

But this is also why I am saying to use cotton in the bristles to remove any build up.

Yes, I have seen built up excess attract contaminats. That is why I say, wiipe it clean. Its still there. But you should not see it.

I don't talk about tubepins,in the sockets you could'nt it wipe away.
Even blowing it out with compressed air doesn't help. Something always gets stuck between the kelch springs of the tube socket. You have to use a cleaner with brushes that evaporate without leaving any residue.never use it again to tubesockets.
Switches that can be disassembled, contact pins, etc. where you can wipe away or clean everything - no problem.
If anyone comes up with the idea of using methylated spirits to clean it, it leaves unsightly white marks after evaporation. Rinsing with distilled water helps.
I used to clean entire circuit boards in an ultrasonic bath with methylated spirits. It cleans really well. But you have to rinse and let it dry, then it looks like new.

P.S
A mixture of 70% distilled water, 30% isopropanol and a drop of dishwashing liquid is an excellent lp cleaner for your machine shake it and use it

 

[wil]

I tested isolation between components with purchesing 7 separate balanced trafos .
One for each component. It was better but not a lot . Still have those if someone wants to test it.

Much bigger difference was when isolation was tested with Transparent Audio Isolators.
I used Reference Isolator that had 4 separate banks of isolation and Opus Isolator that had 2 separate isolated sockets. Both extremely good and effective, but extremely expensive at the same time .
Also Opus powercord was used.

Cost of one Opus Isolator with only 2 sockets could pay for a Victron with battery for a big system.

I continue to go back and forth comparing the Battery and Utility, listening to an hour and a half of well recorded reference music from solo acoustic instrumental to opera to large scale orchestral.

There is no "battery" sound coloring the music and dynamics are at least as good from as from utility power.

The essential difference that I hear every time, and on every track, is a slight but significant difference in tonality. The Utility is a fraction of an octave lower. The Utility also sounds more full with weight, but can also sound more congested and thick. The Battery sounds more transparent, but might lean to being relatively thin at times.

This could come down to a matter of preference where the Battery presentation is better on some recordings and the Utility better on others.

I wonder if the Utility sound is due to it's distortion spectrum. To me, it sounds like distortion. Fwiw, the Utility power usually runs 3 to 3.5 THD odd order (3rd, 7th, 9th, 11th). It shows NO 5th order harmonics.

I tend to think the Battery power might have a better upside in that it apparently is giving a baseline of lower distortion that could more effectively tweaked to a slightly lower tonality with more body.

I also suspect the Exeltech Inverter might have a significant upgrade upside: better Caps, better wiring...).

In any case, if your utility power is considered compromised or "bad", this battery solution would be worth trying at the least.

 

[Kingrex]

I don't talk about tubepins,in the sockets you could'nt it wipe away.
Even blowing it out with compressed air doesn't help. Something always gets stuck between the kelch springs of the tube socket. You have to use a cleaner with brushes that evaporate without leaving any residue.never use it again to tubesockets.
Switches that can be disassembled, contact pins, etc. where you can wipe away or clean everything - no problem.
If anyone comes up with the idea of using methylated spirits to clean it, it leaves unsightly white marks after evaporation. Rinsing with distilled water helps.
I used to clean entire circuit boards in an ultrasonic bath with methylated spirits. It cleans really well. But you have to rinse and let it dry, then it looks like new.

P.S
A mixture of 70% distilled water, 30% isopropanol and a drop of dishwashing liquid is an excellent lp cleaner for your machine shake it and use it

I hear you. I see where your coming from. I could see the slit in the socket gathering gunk behind it.

I am not sure what is worse. Even gold wipes off black residue over time. Do you leave it with possible contamination over time. Or try and clean it, and your saying, maybe make it worse. ?????

 

[Kingrex]

I continue to go back and forth comparing the Battery and Utility, listening to an hour and a half of well recorded reference music from solo acoustic instrumental to opera to large scale orchestral.

There is no "battery" sound coloring the music and dynamics are at least as good from as from utility power.

The essential difference that I hear every time, and on every track, is a slight but significant difference in tonality. The Utility is a fraction of an octave lower. The Utility also sounds more full with weight, but can also sound more congested and thick. The Battery sounds more transparent, but might lean to being relatively thin at times.

This could come down to a matter of preference where the Battery presentation is better on some recordings and the Utility better on others.

I wonder if the Utility sound is due to it's distortion spectrum. To me, it sounds like distortion. Fwiw, the Utility power usually runs 3 to 3.5 THD odd order (3rd, 7th, 9th, 11th). It shows NO 5th order harmonics.

I tend to think the Battery power might have a better upside in that it apparently is giving a baseline of lower distortion that could more effectively tweaked to a slightly lower tonality with more body.

I also suspect the Exeltech Inverter might have a significant upgrade upside: better Caps, better wiring...).

In any case, if your utility power is considered compromised or "bad", this battery solution would be worth trying at the least.

Good feedback Wil.
I am looking at a slightly larger inverter. With a different technology. Not sure which will be better. I am getting the feeling I may have to gut the Victron and place it on a isolated structure to shut down mechanical vibration from the core. It may turn into more work than the payback.
I am pretty confident that Exeltech can be modified.
Are you plugging into the provided duplex, or hardwire to the output terminals.
I have seen someone else use a short jumper from the terminals to a Furutech. He also swapped out caps on the output. I would hardwire to the output terminals. The only cord end would be the Female IEC going into the Torus. That will help.

 

[oldvinyl]

I hear you. I see where your coming from. I could see the slit in the socket gathering gunk behind it.

I am not sure what is worse. Even gold wipes off black residue over time. Do you leave it with possible contamination over time. Or try and clean it, and your saying, maybe make it worse. ?????

Clean the tube pins.
Next, or maybe before, clean the tube sockets.
Be sure all residue from DeOxit is removed. DeOxit has an oil that will build up in tube sockets. It is especially hard to clean the residue out of 9 pin miniature tube sockets. With periodic cleaning a contact enhancer is not necessary.
This has more to do with the contact enhancement aspect than whether DeOxit removes oxidation.

I clean the sockets with products that do not leave a residue. They are not contact enhancers, just a cleaner.

 

[Kingrex]

Clean the tube pins.
Next, or maybe before, clean the tube sockets.
Be sure all residue from DeOxit is removed. DeOxit has an oil that will build up in tube sockets. It is especially hard to clean the residue out of 9 pin miniature tube sockets. With periodic cleaning a contact enhancer is not necessary.
This has more to do with the contact enhancement aspect than whether DeOxit removes oxidation.

I clean the sockets with products that do not leave a residue. They are not contact enhancers, just a cleaner.

I like the contact enhancement. And I have always said you need to wipe it away. Never leave any uild up.
I have been told the spray such GN5S is only 5% Deoxit and 95% solvent. The solvent and spray are supposed to flush away contaminants and the 5% is supposed to be a small enough amount to properly cost. Not sure in a tube socket. Never tried. I use the spray in the backnof breakers and up and down the neutral and ground bars. As well as into lugs.