Noise. That damned demon you may not even know about...

I like the contact enhancement. And I have always said you need to wipe it away. Never leave any uild up.
I have been told the spray such GN5S is only 5% Deoxit and 95% solvent. The solvent and spray are supposed to flush away contaminants and the 5% is supposed to be a small enough amount to properly cost. Not sure in a tube socket. Never tried. I use the spray in the backnof breakers and up and down the neutral and ground bars. As well as into lugs.
We are talking two completely different scenarios.

I am solely referring to vacuum tube sockets.

Your application is in the electrical panel.

DeOxit has an oil for the enhancer to stay suspended in. I have found that the oil will ruin a vacuum tube socket. Even after trying to clean it out after applying it.
 
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How about creating a tube socket cleaning thread (since this another subject altogther) so that the discussion can continue on about the demons of noise on one's system?

I am pretty sure folks worldwide would want to know...

Tom
 
How about creating a tube socket cleaning thread (since this another subject altogther) so that the discussion can continue on about the demons of noise on one's system?

I am pretty sure folks worldwide would want to know...

Tom
Tom - some of us were also pointing out that noise can come from a variety of sources. Poor electrical connections can happen at the utility on the street, in the electrical panel, in the house wiring, in the plugs and connectors to the stereo gear. Even oxidation in vacuum tube sockets will impact the noise in a system.

Sorry if it is seemingly unrelated. I prefer to address all sources of noise to the best of my ability.

The hope is that the process and products used in cleaning doesn't create a new problem.
 
Understood sir. That's not the "noise" I am referring to. That is different type of noise.

While still relevent, this should be a differnt topic altogether.

Cleaning contacts is one thing. The noise I am talking about is a separate issue.

Tom
 
Understood sir. That's not the "noise" I am referring to. That is different type of noise.

While still relevent, this should be a differnt topic altogether.

Cleaning contacts is one thing. The noise I am talking about is a separate issue.

Tom
Please help me understand. I have been responding to the initial post in this thread: "There is a difference between a grey background and a calm, completely black void of any sound, within images, instruments or sweet nothings/whispers."

Electrical and signal connections play into the noise floor. If my contributions are not adding anything in this direction, I am happy to contribute to other threads. Not that I had much more to say about it anyway ... :cool:

Some of the topics subsequently mentioned such as jitter and clocks also affect sound and the background. I would not classify them as noise - they pertain more to how the reconstructed analog signal is "aligned" in time. The time alignment affects the signal and its harmonic content. That said, the electrical signals on a digital processing card can radiate to other components and be affected by radiated signals from other components -- aka noise. Even signal routing, circuit layout, circuit construction, component selection and materials affect the amount of noise on the board and its affect on the components. Little we can do about this as consumers. The top designers are aware of these issues and design their circuits, circuit boards, power supplies, etc to reduce the noise (you can't get rid of all of it .... yet). There are RF absorbing materials you can use to line the case of a CD player, streamer, transport, etc - but great care is needed not to mess things up.
 
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You raise a good point. I was wrong. Please carry on good sir.

Tom
 
(...) My thread on Battery Power has a few people that used those things. They are shockingly good. But not quite as good as well done mains. (...)

What is well done mains? I had promised but only now can get these two frequency spectra in the audio bandwidth. The first one is at a friend house - he asked me to measure it as he was considering buying a PSAudio P20 . and the second one is from my old PSAudio P300 (60Hz, 115V) that I use to power smaller 110V US equipment, supplying around 100W. The differences in THD and noise are impressive.
a1.jpg
b1.jpg
 
Why does the upper plot show a peak at 50 Hz?
 
What is well done mains? I had promised but only now can get these two frequency spectra in the audio bandwidth. The first one is at a friend house - he asked me to measure it as he was considering buying a PSAudio P20 . and the second one is from my old PSAudio P300 (60Hz, 115V) that I use to power smaller 110V US equipment, supplying around 100W. The differences in THD and noise are impressive.
View attachment 157901
View attachment 157902
Interesting how they differ. The street is larger more jagged peaks. The P300 is smaller peaks, but there is some Fuzz, especially coming off the fundamental frequency. Like a fine hash in-between the harmonics.

Well done mains is as little aluminum as possible. There is a best practice when making up a panel to reference the utility neutral to service grounds and neutrals and all the bonding requited by the NEC. Then copper feeders to all copper panels supplying audio equipment. And Deoxing it all.

I am not convinced the lowest possible harmonics in the first odd and even out to say the 12th is the only noise to look at. I don't know what frequency and at what amplitude the noise from galvanic reaction of dissimilar metals is occurring. But I believe it is audible. Same for micro arcing at dirty contacts. Or the impact of oxidation on older wires, breakers and bus bars. Then there is RF type noise.
 
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We have 50 Hz mains in Europe. The P300 regenerator is an US version with a 60 Hz output. Very useful to use US gear having synchronous motors or mains frequency detection in Europe.
I understand 50 and 60Hz power.
Just seemed somewhat odd to see both in a single post.
 
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I have heard, using a step down tranaformer from 120 to 100 volts can work on European and Japan 100 volt, 50 hertz equipment. . The equipment will tolerate the 60 hertz frequency even though it was designed for 50. Some say there is an added sense of power with amps.
Getting the voltage correct is more critical. Most all ewuipment is designed to operate with a max of say 7% voltage over or under. 20% can damage the gear.

I honestly don't know how the frequency affects the equipmemt circuit. Its an additional 17% frequency cycling.
I assume some engineers would know the answer.
 
I have heard, using a step down tranaformer from 120 to 100 volts can work on European and Japan 100 volt, 50 hertz equipment. . The equipment will tolerate the 60 hertz frequency even though it was designed for 50. Some say there is an added sense of power with amps.
Getting the voltage correct is more critical. Most all ewuipment is designed to operate with a max of say 7% voltage over or under. 20% can damage the gear.

I honestly don't know how the frequency affects the equipmemt circuit. Its an additional 17% frequency cycling.
I assume some engineers would know the answer.
Usually motors and transformers were designed for “a frequency”, with more modern motors being “universal” and they can take both 50 and/or 60 Hz.
 
Noise.

It permeates. It infiltrates. It is a deficiency that many here (and elsewhere) know nothing about.

There is a difference between a grey background and a calm, completely black void of any sound, within images, instruments or sweet nothings/whispers.

There are many different ways to achieve this. If you understand what "noise" actually is?

Tell us how you thwarted it.

Tom
I would very much appreciate help with a distortion problem.

It is not a hum or hiss; it is not the noise you don’t notice until it is gone. It is not essentially something to do with the background, but with the music itself. Piano almost always sounds good, but as music becomes more complex, or even louder, you hear a problem. When the problem is there, which it is more or less almost all the time now, my husband hears something like a sound of frying oil in a pan, sort of sizzling bubbles, plus tangled up sound and smearing when it is worse. I may hear something fuzzy but I have pulsatile tinnitus and it gets mixed up with it. The fuzziness is made up of random, lost bits of the music. I hear what is called graininess plus pitch problems, maybe time problems, tangling up, and clashing harmonics, harshness. I lose interest.

Note that we have had what is for us perfect sound, with the same equipment. The last time was August 3 when we listened to some big choral pieces.

This problem is getting gradually worse. It used to be fixed by turning the system off at the wall overnight. Then it would creep in and after some days we would need to turn the system off; then one day it didn’t come good. Problem was the same playing an SACD direct to pre-amp, so not anything before that in playing digital music. Unplugging just the preamp from the P20 when sound was bad, then leaving it off for four hours fixed the sound too, but it deteriorated in the same way in a few days. So it was not the power conditioner. We changed the preamp (PSAudio BHK), which seemed to be causing the problem, but after two days of perfect sound with the new (Accuphase) preamp the problem came back. Now, turning it off at the wall doesn’t help, but it can improve by itself, though not entirely, with the present preamp.

The problem does not seem to be our gear; it does not seem to be the solar—that was turned off for some days and showed no difference; it is not something in the house since there is nothing that might be off for two entire days and then on for four days and then half on for three, etc. That sector has nothing else on except the modem and router. The meter box is 120m away on a shed with the solar, but I cannot imagine what would behave in this manner. It is not weather, time of day, day of week. It can deteriorate in the space of a half hour.

We thought it might be the grid, not us. We contacted the electric company and they thought it sounded like their side. They checked the various connections on their side (with a camera from the ground) and also monitored voltage and THD at our meter box over a week without finding any interference. So if there is an issue it is more subtle. We are at the edge of a small branch line of I think about 57 customers, of whom at least a third are absent a lot. This is a rural area in Australia and our nearest neighbours are at least 1k away. We have a transformer near the shed. At the shed THD is under 4 and the voltage is in recent times high, around 247 to 251 or so (I once saw 254). Years back, it varied more, from under 230 to over 250. The P20 registers slightly lower figures incoming than the electric company’s monitor or the Fronius inverter.

The sound problem comes unaffected through a PSAudio P20 and the complete Nordost QRT system and Tyr cables (which we were kindly lent). The Nordost gear gave great sound but didn’t help with this problem. I don’t think we can put in a dedicated line because there is nowhere now to put a new trench, but I have not investigated because it would be folly if we found the same problem having done that.

It has been fairly stable just lately, neither terrible nor perfect. When things are worst we cannot listen at all. When bad but not awful we can listen to piano and it may sound very nice, with inky background . When not good but not too bad, we can listen to a small group of instruments or a single voice with pleasure. It is particularly when there are multiple voices that I am unhappy even when the sound is okay but not close to perfect. Unfortunately, we like renaissance and baroque vocal music, which needs it to be perfect. It is for listening to that that we have this gear, which gives really nice sound.

Has anyone had this problem or know what it is? It is a power problem, but what do I call it when it isn't voltage or THD?

Thank you

P20, voltage in is usually higher—246-248, but not over 250, and THD in can be past 3 but not past 3.5.
IMG_2282.jpeg
Grid monitor (I gather that the B and C are not relevant)

Screenshot 2025-08-27 at 2.29.14 pm.jpeg
 
I would very much appreciate help with a distortion problem.


Has anyone had this problem or know what it is? It is a power problem, but what do I call it when it isn't voltage or THD?
Probably IMD or something along those lines.
I would not be surprised if it was something well outside of the audio band that is mixing in.

Maybe an amp going into RF oscillation?
Which may require an O-Scope more than ears and just trying dozens of things.

I would think that it is almost certainly not the incoming power.
 
Thank you. Okay, intermodulation distortion, but from what sort of thing? O-scope of what sort?
 
Thank you. Okay, intermodulation distortion, but from what sort of thing?
Well ^it’s^ a hypothesis.
Ideally we would have an Ishikawa chart (aka fishbone diagram), and start working through things.

From memory, it was high feedback, high slew rate amps with long high capacitance cables… and the amp would go into oscillation.
As part of an Ishikawa exercise, one might try skipping the amp and speakers and using earbuds and some RCA to 3mm jack.

The chance of two preamps being bad seems like a pretty low probability.
And I doubt that the Accuphase is anything but noice.
One could try another source, like even an iPhone and streaming out to some RCAs via an iPhone to headphone (female 1/8” jack.)
I would bet a bottle-o-shiraz, or a cab, that it’s the amp.

It could possibly be som eRF coming in, like from a ham radio, or RDFS, or school of the air etc. But I sorta doubt it.

O-scope of what sort?
One that does RF frequencies.
If there is a ham radio fellow close by, like see some antennas, then bail up the (fellow) and see if they’ll help. Most have an O-Scope.


... This is a rural area in Australia and our nearest neighbours are at least 1k away.
It is not likely the neighbours then…

Where are you exzackery? NSW/VIC?
Or are you nearby us?
Are you watching the Lions vs Magpies by chance?

I assume I should use the salutation of madam?
 
Well ^it’s^ a hypothesis.
Ideally we would have an Ishikawa chart (aka fishbone diagram), and start working through things.

From memory, it was high feedback, high slew rate amps with long high capacitance cables… and the amp would go into oscillation.
As part of an Ishikawa exercise, one might try skipping the amp and speakers and using earbuds and some RCA to 3mm jack.

The chance of two preamps being bad seems like a pretty low probability.
And I doubt that the Accuphase is anything but noice.
One could try another source, like even an iPhone and streaming out to some RCAs via an iPhone to headphone (female 1/8” jack.)
I would bet a bottle-o-shiraz, or a cab, that it’s the amp.

It could possibly be som eRF coming in, like from a ham radio, or RDFS, or school of the air etc. But I sorta doubt it.


One that does RF frequencies.
If there is a ham radio fellow close by, like see some antennas, then bail up the (fellow) and see if they’ll help. Most have an O-Scope.


It is not likely the neighbours then…

Where are you exzackery? NSW/VIC?
Or are you nearby us?
Are you watching the Lions vs Magpies by chance?

I assume I should use the salutation of madam?
NSW, and no Lions vs Magpies (don't even know what they are). Has been two different power amps. Thank you!
 

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