Noise. That damned demon you may not even know about...

[italia]

Thwart noise? No, I've only mitigated it. Here's my list of noise mitigation efforts:

• Dedicated 20A circuit to stereo system
• Shakti Stone Airs on circuit panels
• SR Pink UEF Duplex A/C Outlets for stereo, and Cable Modem/Router
• LHY LPS’s with Shakti Stone Airs on Cable Modem and Router
• Galvanic Isolation: Ethernet to Fiber to Ethernet conversion (LHY FMC to LHY SW-6)
• High Fidelity Cables MC-0.5 Helix Plus Signature Shunt Conditioners
• Vera-Fi Audio Puron Plug-In A/C Line Conditioners
• SR Powercell 8 SX using SRX XL power cable with ground attachments
• SR Ground Block with HD SX and Foundation Ground Cables
• SR UEF Performance Enhancers (Ethernet, XLR, USB)
• SR Foundation XL 4-pin XLR Subwoofer Interconnects
• SR Atmosphere SX Reference Ethernet Cables with ground attachment
• Lessloss C-MARC Classic and Prime power cables
• Lessloss Firewall 640X’s
• Lessloss Firewall for Loudspeakers
• Lessloss C-MARC RCA Interconnects & Speaker Cables
• GIK 2A Alpha Pro Series Panel Diffusor/Absorbers (Front Wall + Side Walls)
• GIK Gotham N23 5” Quadratic Diffusers (Front Wall)
• ASC SuperTraps
• Soundproof Cow Echo 2” Absorber Acoustic Panels (Floor: First Reflection)
• Moondream Soundproof Mars Curtains (-15dB)

 

[Zeotrope]

In my case it was through a series of changes, with incremental (small) improvements from each. My "issue" is high sensitivity (~105dB) horns in a relatively small room. They sound great, due to the directivity of the conical horns which minimizes room reflections; but that also amplifies any and all noise, along with the ~10 ft seating distance. If I had a larger room and sat further back, no noise would likely be audible.

A/C Power Filters- Shunyata Denali v2 and Typhon T2
Grounding- Shunyata Altaira Signal Hubs
Vibration- Seismion
Active EMI/RFI removal- Schnerzinger MULTI, EMI, GRID

Finally, lower noise components: replacing the DarTZeel 18NS (despite being battery powered, this pre-amp is comparatively quite noisy) with the Nagra REF Pre and mono blocks made a big difference and it's now essentially imperceptible.

 

[stnsw]

Which albums didn't sound good?

This one. Nice sound for first few tracks. Then switched to piano. Problem was bad enough that I could occasionally hear it in the piano album

 

[stnsw]

Have you thought to try battery power? With Rex Hungerford’s guidance, I set up a simple 5000 watt hour system to power everything but the subs. I’m still evaluating whether it is better than my Utility power (which is good I think), but the battery sounds very good with none of the shortcomings I’ve heard attributed to battery power. You might want to contact @Kingrex as he might be working on a “plug and play” setup.

Thank you. I am in Australia, though. I'll check it out.

 

[microstrip]

Have you thought to try battery power? With Rex Hungerford’s guidance, I set up a simple 5000 watt hour system to power everything but the subs. I’m still evaluating whether it is better than my Utility power (which is good I think), but the battery sounds very good with none of the shortcomings I’ve heard attributed to battery power. You might want to contact @Kingrex as he might be working on a “plug and play” setup.

What is the inverter you are using?

 

[Kingrex]

Wil has a 48 volt battery to Exeltech XP2000 inverter with 120 volt duplex on the load side.

2000 Watt Pure Sine Wave Power Inverter: Remote Controlled Power

Exeltech’s 2k watt XP series power inverter provides clean low distortion AC output featuring: remote on off switch and a thermostat controlled cooling!

exeltech.com

I am about to purchase a Victron Multiplus-ii 48 volt 5000 watt inverter and a Abyss 48 volt rack mount battery. Or just the regular Abyss 48 volt 100AH battery and have a case built for it. I'm probably going to build up the battery case with a 90A fuse block to a pin and sleeve cord end. The cord will be hard wired to the inverter in its own enclosure. Length made to order. But its going to be less than 5 feet. 2 to 3 feet is best.
The load side of the inverter enclosure will have a couple Hifi Supreme fuse blocks, fuses and 2 Furutech NCF duplex on the side. Or a single 40A twist lock that will feed a #8 or #6 to a Bocchino female end that will go into a Torus RM20 or RM40. I will replace the IEC and a couple of the Duplex with Furutech NCF duplex on the RM20. It will be a package.

FWIW, I am bypassing the battery charge in the Multiplus. I am using the Abyss charger made for the battery. In my mind safer. The Abyss app allows you to see the charge of the battery, charging speed, the watt usage as well as the remaining life. Its a very safe battery. Its a lot more expensive that the cheap batteries on Amazon. I would not purchase a Amazon lithium battery to use in my house. The Abyss batteries will cycle 3000 times if you drain them 100%. They will cycle 6000 times if you drain them 10%. The sweet spot is don't drain more than 80%. So you set the battery management system to shut the battery down when it hits 80%. You will probably get 5000 charges. At that point, the battery will still have 80% of its life after 5000 uses. That's a good 12 years of battery life if you used it every day. The enclosures would be set up to handle 1 to 4 batteries.
You can parallel the Multiplus up to 6. That's 30,000 watts. Or 250 amps. There is no stereo that can not be powered with an off grid system.

 

[microstrip]

Wil has a 48 volt battery to Exeltech XP2000 inverter with 120 volt duplex on the load side.

2000 Watt Pure Sine Wave Power Inverter: Remote Controlled Power

Exeltech’s 2k watt XP series power inverter provides clean low distortion AC output featuring: remote on off switch and a thermostat controlled cooling!

exeltech.com

Thanks.
From the available information on the Exeltech XP2000 :

"They are extremely low in Total Distortion; specified to 2%, and typically better than 1.5%. Total Harmonic Distortion is typically 0.8% to 0.9%. Remaining distortion is a result of residual switching noise,which amounts to a very clean 25 KHZ sine wave superimposed on the fundamental output. No significant harmonics of 25 KHZ exist. "

It seem this inverter has high sinusoidal 25 KHz content, in the the audio bandwidth of modern HiRez digital.

I am about to purchase a Victron Multiplus-ii 48 volt 5000 watt inverter and a Abyss 48 volt rack mount battery. Or just the regular Abyss 48 volt 100AH battery and have a case built for it. (...)

I could not get any interesting specs on these devices. A pity, they are available in my country and not expensive.

 

[Kingrex]

Its the technology. I like transformers. Exeltech is all Fets doing the work. Victron is fets making the AC, but a step up boosting the voltage.

Feedback from people doing this stuff like Victron. They also like Exeltech. But specs are not everything. Clean does not mean dynamic. Some THD at high frequencies may filter out well and not be an issue.

If I got an Exeltech, I would not use the built in duplex. It comes with screw terminals also. People have told me they also change some of the smoothing caps for better performance. Any can be improved upon for audio.

Either may require a small cabinet with quiet fans to remove inverter noise. The good thing is, the load cable to the Torus, or filter of your choice can be 15 feet or so. Its the battery to inverter cable that needs to remain very short.

 

[stnsw]

Is there such a thing as an audiophile battery and inverter? We have a Tesla battery and inverter. When we have an outage and the Tesla takes over, before we turn off the sound system altogether at the wall there is an unpleasant hum from the PSAudio P20. I imagine that is from the inverter. We do not need to be off-grid, just to have better grid power or some battery substitute.

 

[Kingrex]

Battery Power

...gents, as it's balanced power, is it 220v input to the device, for US applications? The DC blocking aspect is of interest. Thank you... 110v with 20amp square C20 power connection.

www.whatsbestforum.com

Soon.
There is Stromtank as well as Pure Power.
I am going more robust and looking to optimize specifically for audio. 25A to 42A power supplies. Thats true 3000 and 5000 watt inverters that series up to 6. All very low distortion units. I can make a 250A supply if needed.

Its probably going to be around $16k to $18k complete. You can cobble together the pieces on your own with no cases for around $11k. Then you have to put it all together.

 

[wil]

Thanks.
From the available information on the Exeltech XP2000 :

"They are extremely low in Total Distortion; specified to 2%, and typically better than 1.5%. Total Harmonic Distortion is typically 0.8% to 0.9%. Remaining distortion is a result of residual switching noise,which amounts to a very clean 25 KHZ sine wave superimposed on the fundamental output. No significant harmonics of 25 KHZ exist. "

It seem this inverter has high sinusoidal 25 KHz content, in the the audio bandwidth of modern HiRez digital.



I could not get any interesting specs on these devices. A pity, they are available in my country and not expensive.

You lost me with “no significant harmonics of 25 kHz exist” (from Exeltech)….

followed by “it seems this inverter has high sinusoidal 25 khz content”

???

Also, would you specify what interesting specs are you looking for?

I have the Exeltech, and as far as THD is measured by the fluke 345, THD is below one percent. This is measured at the Excel tech output as well as the Torus RM 20 output.

 

[microstrip]

You lost me with “no significant harmonics of 25 kHz exist” (from Exeltech)….

followed by “it seems this inverter has high sinusoidal 25 khz content”

???

Yes. We see that the total distortion content is significantly higher than mains THD (hamonics of 50 or 60Hz) . As no harmonics of 25 KHz exist, it seems this difference is due just to the 25 KHz pure content.

Also, would you specify what interesting specs are you looking for?

I have the Exeltech, and as far as THD is measured by the fluke 345, THD is below one percent. This is measured at the Excel tech output as well as the Torus RM 20 output.

The picture of the spectral analysis of mains and its variation with different loads. I have no direct experience with the Fluke 345, but as far as I could see it is not adequate for researching inverters to be used in high-end systems.

 

[wil]

Yes. We see that the total distortion content is significantly higher than mains THD (hamonics of 50 or 60Hz) . As no harmonics of 25 KHz exist, it seems this difference is due just to the 25 KHz pure content.



The picture of the spectral analysis of mains and its variation with different loads. I have no direct experience with the Fluke 345, but as far as I could see it is not adequate for researching inverters to be used in high-end systems.

The fluke 345 is measuring the THD at below one percent. That’s lower than Mains. Why are you saying it’s higher? And this corresponds with what Exceltech cites.

Tell us what measurement you would like to see on an inverter?

 

[microstrip]

The fluke 345 is measuring the THD at below one percent. That’s lower than Mains. Why are you saying it’s higher? And this corresponds with what Exceltech cites.

Tell us what measurement you would like to see on an inverter?

There is a difference between mains harmonics and distortion due to an inverter carrier at much higher frequency. The Fluke can't measure the later - it is optimized just for classical mains measurements, not for inverters to be used in the high-end.

I told you before what I wanted - the distortion frequency spectra of the inverter output.

The Fluke THD number is just the tip of the iceberg.

Please note that this not a mains spectra - it is just the spectra of a 500 Hz square wave to give you an idea of what I am addressing. I can't access my old mains measurements now.

 

[wil]

I’ll give Exeltech a call and see if they happen to have measurements in higher frequencies

 

[Kingrex]

I believe what Microstip is saying is that a 3rd harmonic of a 60 hertz AC 120 volt utility power sine wave is 180 hertz. A 5th is 300 hertz. Those are very low hertz frequencies that the Fluke can see.

The inverter is switching at 25,000 hertz. A 3rd would be 75,000 hertz. A 5th 125,000 hertz. These frequencies are significantly higher than what the Fluke is able to measure. You would need a desktop scope and want to dial in on offending frequencies to measure them.
The Torus is not effective at filtering a 180 hertz harmonic. It is only mildly effective at the base 25,000 frequency of the switching fet in the inverter. But its quite a good filter as your reach up to 5th and higher harmonics of the inverter fundimental 25,000 switching frequency.

 

[Grateful]

Noise.

It permeates. It infiltrates. It is a deficiency that many here (and elsewhere) know nothing about.

There is a difference between a grey background and a calm, completely black void of any sound, within images, instruments or sweet nothings/whispers.

There are many different ways to achieve this. If you understand what "noise" actually is?

Tell us how you thwarted it.

Tom

Hi Tom,

I understand and completely agree with your point! OTOH, I actually prefer noise, instead of noise reduction, in many of my recordings.

Best regards,
Jeffrey

 

[Kris]

Wil has a 48 volt battery to Exeltech XP2000 inverter with 120 volt duplex on the load side.

2000 Watt Pure Sine Wave Power Inverter: Remote Controlled Power

Exeltech’s 2k watt XP series power inverter provides clean low distortion AC output featuring: remote on off switch and a thermostat controlled cooling!

exeltech.com

I am about to purchase a Victron Multiplus-ii 48 volt 5000 watt inverter and a Abyss 48 volt rack mount battery. Or just the regular Abyss 48 volt 100AH battery and have a case built for it. I'm probably going to build up the battery case with a 90A fuse block to a pin and sleeve cord end. The cord will be hard wired to the inverter in its own enclosure. Length made to order. But its going to be less than 5 feet. 2 to 3 feet is best.
The load side of the inverter enclosure will have a couple Hifi Supreme fuse blocks, fuses and 2 Furutech NCF duplex on the side. Or a single 40A twist lock that will feed a #8 or #6 to a Bocchino female end that will go into a Torus RM20 or RM40. I will replace the IEC and a couple of the Duplex with Furutech NCF duplex on the RM20. It will be a package.

FWIW, I am bypassing the battery charge in the Multiplus. I am using the Abyss charger made for the battery. In my mind safer. The Abyss app allows you to see the charge of the battery, charging speed, the watt usage as well as the remaining life. Its a very safe battery. Its a lot more expensive that the cheap batteries on Amazon. I would not purchase a Amazon lithium battery to use in my house. The Abyss batteries will cycle 3000 times if you drain them 100%. They will cycle 6000 times if you drain them 10%. The sweet spot is don't drain more than 80%. So you set the battery management system to shut the battery down when it hits 80%. You will probably get 5000 charges. At that point, the battery will still have 80% of its life after 5000 uses. That's a good 12 years of battery life if you used it every day. The enclosures would be set up to handle 1 to 4 batteries.
You can parallel the Multiplus up to 6. That's 30,000 watts. Or 250 amps. There is no stereo that can not be powered with an off grid system.

Had identical plan few months ago , but no time to make it happen.
5000 is probably best in regards to the theoretical power needs, but newer version ( 2) has AC connecting points much less quality then the version 1.
I was thinking about the higher spec version 8000 and 10.000 as they could have much higher specs with my power hungry monos and their power attachment points are much larger for AC.
Also it could make a great sense as the voltage will remain much more stabile.
We should keep in mind that the regular power line can deliver a LOT of Amps in peaks, so the higher the better, but this needs to be tested.
The battery must be LiFepo4 with hight quality as you mentioned.
Also here the more Amps the better.
For 10.000 Quattro version I was told the best would be 3x 200 Amps at 48 V to handle everything
(house if needed) so 600 A battery pack. But again 200 A might be good to start testing and add more if there is any need.

Why I believe the more the better? I had the StromTank 5000 for many months in my system that was never able to deliver the good sound fully off grid ( green light) , but when it was on line ( blue light) it sounded much better than a grid itself.
Stromtank 5k has 750VA continuous power. This is not much for amps.
Hight power version has 1500VA.
Victron quattro 10k version is rated 10.000 VA continuous at 230V,
8000 Watts continuous, 20.000 Watts peak.

Victron is one of the very best here in Europe with very low THD .
Both Multiplus and Quattro are great.
Their THD is much lower than listed in manual at lower loads.

Please keep us updated with your progress. I hope you can set your off grid for stereo soon.

 

[Elliot G.]

I'm not sure how many points of entry are available for noise pollution in my system but I do know that addressing different areas have given excellent results in the SQ from the reduction of some of them. This for me is/was you don't know what you don't know until you know something .
I have been familiar with power cords and power conditioning devices and a bit of grounding but I had never done a serious deep dive into the unknown. This started for me with Grant Samuelson approaching me to represent the brand again. He came and visited and we had an interesting discussion followed by him doing a couple of demonstrations with power cords stuck directly into outlets in my sound room. This was done in conjunction with a device that let you hear the noise on the line, sorry don't know what it is called and I did not stay in a Holiday Inn express that night!
This demo led to my starting a electrical, digital, mechanical and grounding deep dive into my room and system that was far more targeted than just adding a few products and doo dads. I don't want to minimize room noise as well but this is a different topic.
I was not a big fan of power conditioners since they removed and changed iMO the signal so that it was better and worse at the same time. I had tried many. I had read that network signals were full of noise and I again had tried a few gizmos that changed the signal but did not totally cure the disease and perhaps made it worse. I did not totally understand grounding and what there was to achieve and had really only explored mechanical isolation to a point. This I was successful in realizing there was a significant difference to be gained. The last which was totally unknown to me was the noise generated by he signal as it moves trough the gear and wires.

Every system and user is going to come into obstacles. These will vary to some degree in various environments and with different gear ( i assume)
What I said about you don't know what you don't know until you do is a hard pill to swallow and to wrap your audio head around along with your audio wallet. In my experience every one wants the silver bullet cure however that one gizmo to fix it all has not yet come down the pipe.
Some noise is easier to understand and control than others. My system is only digital and I would suspect if you have both analog and digital there probably are some interactions that can make those not work at full strength together.
By the way is is far more than dark backgrounds as that is just one type of noise, as I said you don't know until you know.
Good hunting folks

 

[Kingrex]

Noise between equipment is a very real thing. How detrimental is that noise. What frequency is it at.

One benefit of battery power is you can almost completely isolate equipment from the road, as well as each other.

But to Kris's point, does it still have drive. I too believe bigger is better. Maybe. I heard a Tesla Powerwall feeding a stereo. It was different than the road. It was a brief listen. I thought it sounded very close, but maybe a bit slickery. Maybe less percussive drive. I don't have much faith in a powerwall. It's built to power a house. Not a stereo.

I think a 3000 watt inverter to a Torus RM20 will be enough, but I may go 5000 watt. Its the weight. 5000 watts is 72 lbs. And it still needs a enclosure with fans, , disconnect switches and receptacle.

And to Elliots point,what about the load out cable. Who is going to make that for me. I want to tie it directly to a Hifi Supreme cartridge fuse. I want a hard wired #10 from the inverter to a IEC. From there it can plug into anything. But multiple people having tried all sorts of Puritan, Shunyata, AQ and other filters come back to a isolation transformer. I have heard this from 5 or 6 different people.

FWIW, I have made some pretty long power cables simply by using solid #10, twisting it 1 turn every 2 inches, the ground loose, mylar over the top, 20 awg dead soft silver wrapping the mylar down with tech flex over the cable, terminated into a gold Furutech cord and iec. Damb good for all of $240 for a 30 foot cable. I actually made this cable as stated, plugged it into my Torus and landed in a Furutech Rhodium NCF duplex and use 2 power cables from the guy who made my monoblock amps. Its the best my amps have ever played.