New SME Flagship Model 60

[Tango]

Honest reviews are by some real owners in this forum. Get to know who/how they are and use your wisdom reading review from them.

 

[tima]

The problem is that manufacturers pay for reviews and give say on the final press copy.

Let's be accurate. That statement is false.

 

[ddk]

Not sure whether you read the hifi news review - my hard copy arrived last week. I was very disappointed indeed with the review. I always like the measurements section as they provide some objective criteria. The rest of the review I found boring and of little interest. I wanted a thorough description of the sound relative to the 30/2 and 30/12 and then some qualitative description about the sound vis a vis other reference TTs that he has had in room. It is a shame that Ken Kessler didn’t review it as he has been a long standing SME 30 owner and could have potentially filled in the blanks.

Looking at the design elements of the 60 I would say that it’s evolutionary rather than revolutionary. If you liked the 30 you’ll like 60, it’s an upgraded version of that table with slightly better bass and quieter background which translates into comparatively more solid sound. Otherwise it’s still the same concept and basic design. The new tonearm’s contribution is the unknown here, not enough information on it.

david

 

[Loheswaran]

Then I am corrected massively embarrassed

 

[Loheswaran]

Let's be accurate. That statement is false.

Well I have spoken directly to staff at multiple magazines at shows in the UK where you can meet and speak freely and in each case they have said that to me so they must have each told me a lid of rubbish (in the UK at least)

 

[tima]

Then I am corrected massively embarrassed

Well I have spoken directly to staff at multiple magazines at shows in the UK where you can meet and speak freely and in each case they have said that to me so they must have each told me a lid of rubbish (in the UK at least)

No need to feel embarrassed. You've been around and I know you don't just spout off. Mine was a factual correction. I cannot speak to policies of all UK publications. And now-a-days there are scads of offerings popping up that call themselves audio magazines (print and online). Well established, dare I say reputable, magazines and e-zines do not do pay for play. I've written for a while now and never been told what to write or conclude nor have the writers I know. The audio press takes enough whacks for many reasons but it does not do that.

 

[Loheswaran]

No need to feel embarrassed. You've been around and I know you don't just spout off. Mine was a factual correction. I cannot speak to policies of all UK publications. And now-a-days there are scads of offerings popping up that call themselves audio magazines (print and online). Well established, dare I say reputable, magazines and e-zines do not do pay for play. I've written for a while now and never been told what to write or conclude nor have the writers I know. The audio press takes enough whacks for many reasons but it does not do that.

Perhaps a tad off topic - and not trying to gain favour - but I do like positive feedback, HiFi pig and 6Moons as they seem to contextualise quite well. I don’t want to embarrass those I spoke to in the UK so I hope you understand why I won’t name them but in short and taken together most say no equipment is very poor and anything they thought was poor would be told to the manufacturers who will say if they don’t want to be published. As time passes I just know how to take everything with a pinch of salt. It’s just difficult when one lacks experience and auditioning is not practical either. I recall hearing the DPS and loving it when first looking at a good deck but lacked the confidence to buy it in the absence of reviews - years later it had some superb reviews…
Coming back to the SME 60 a cat can look at a king because I can’t justify such an outlay for me

 

[microstrip]

The only honest reviews are from (...)

Sorry, buy IMHO this kind of statement mostly means we disagree on what we expect from a review.

Audiophiles are a curious species. Several people here claim they do not care about reviews, that the industry is decadent and corrupt. Some even claim they have not read full reviews for tens of years. But when a new flagship product arrives in the market they ask for reviews to be able to discuss them! And if by chance some reviewers say nice things about their preferred equipment they become knowledgeable trusty reviewers.

IMHO currently the main issue with reviews is not the reviewer, but the reader. Readers expect guiding from reviews, something that is not possible in this hobby.

 

[microstrip]

Honest reviews are by some real owners in this forum. Get to know who/how they are and use your wisdom reading review from them.

We should use the same concept for any reviewer, not just for WBF members. The only way to weight a subjective review is knowing with some depth the reviewer preferences. I feel more interested in text from a reviewer that regularly writes reviews of a reasonable size, particularly if I know about his opinions about gear I know well. IMHO we should check for consistency along the years. Most reviewers mostly bring me entertainment and information, but also some highend knowledge.

 

[Loheswaran]

Sorry, buy IMHO this kind of statement mostly means we disagree on what we expect from a review.

Audiophiles are a curious species. Several people here claim they do not care about reviews, that the industry is decadent and corrupt. Some even claim they have not read full reviews for tens of years. But when a new flagship product arrives in the market they ask for reviews to be able to discuss them! And if by chance some reviewers say nice things about their preferred equipment they become knowledgeable trusty reviewers.

IMHO currently the main issue with reviews is not the reviewer, but the reader. Readers expect guiding from reviews, something that is not possible in this hobby.

we may well disagree. Like I said earlier - when less seasoned I did look for some guidance - most people buy a magazine for information and guidance. Nowadays I look for information about a product and use a good pinch of salt.
Anyone new to the hobby tends to look at a magazine for honest critical advice. With car reviews it’s perhaps far more easy to measure where you tend to not get the somewhat tame and nod in approval style of review that permeates much of audio journalism now. I will say no more because it takes away from the SME thread - btw it looks far cooler in any colour so long as it’s black

 

[bonzo75]

Michael Fremer‘s did some great tours of the SME factory and I watched those when I had my SME turntables. They were fascinating and the quality of the engineering came through. The model 30 is about 30 years old and it had vertical suspension and I thought horizontal too because I could move it horizontally and it was well damped in both directions, but the video says the new model has both, unlike the former flagship. There were many different designs for the motor control unit for that turntable. I don’t think a separate motor transformer is that new, but they did go from AC to DC motor. I know the Michael Fremer really liked the original model 30 but the US magazines did not review the 12” version which had been the top model for years. Perhaps it’s an evolutionary design that just takes things much further and as a result it sounds much better.

The tonearm looks interesting and it’s a new shape. I know there was talk about developing a new motor and it seems they did that. I agree it will be interesting to read the impressions of how it compares to the old model which is still available with the polished aluminum plates.

I found the video. Classic Fremer quote: "Digital in service to analogue", as he described the machine used to check the parts for accuracy. The video is very impressive and the quality seems outstanding, as one would expect from SME.

Fremer has a write up where he summarizes the design differences between the 30 and the 60 https://www.analogplanet.com/conten...del-60-turntable-new-model-va-polymer-tonearm

 

[PeterA]

Fremer has a write up where he summarizes the design differences between the 30 and the 60 https://www.analogplanet.com/conten...del-60-turntable-new-model-va-polymer-tonearm

Thanks Bonzo. I read that in March/April when it was released. Here is a summation of the sound by Fremer:

"Based on what I heard in the listening room the new Model 60 combines the 30's "gravity" with the Model 15's liveliness and excitement. I cannot wait to get one in for review. "

This seems like a good combination of attributes.

 

[Tango]

Fremer has a write up where he summarizes the design differences between the 30 and the 60 https://www.analogplanet.com/conten...del-60-turntable-new-model-va-polymer-tonearm

You are assuming he was listening the 30 and thd 15 in that same system too. Was he?

 

[bonzo75]

You are assuming he was listening the 30 and thd 15 in that same system too. Was he?

I linked that for the design difference mentioned not for his listening impression, which will be clear after he gets it is for review

 

[microstrip]

we may well disagree. Like I said earlier - when less seasoned I did look for some guidance - most people buy a magazine for information and guidance. Nowadays I look for information about a product and use a good pinch of salt.
Anyone new to the hobby tends to look at a magazine for honest critical advice. With car reviews it’s perhaps far more easy to measure where you tend to not get the somewhat tame and nod in approval style of review that permeates much of audio journalism now. I will say no more because it takes away from the SME thread - btw it looks far cooler in any colour so long as it’s black

Can we know a little more about what type of guidance you expect in an high-end review? I expect magazines to publish articles that can provide some guidance, but not in subjective reviews.

IMHO superficial guidance or knowledge can do more harm than good. If people want guidance they should read books, such as Get Better Sound by Jim Smith, the FLoyd Toole book , The Complete Guide to High-End Audio by Robert Hartley or similar - I could list a lot more. However people must realize that these books are not the bible - they must me understood and compared, in such subjective matters people can be right and have very different approaches and opinions. Or simply rely on a dealer or mentor they trust, that will select a system and teach them how to get the best performance from it.

Again IMHO comparisons with car reviews can be extremely misleading. Car performance is objective, not illusionary, and only moves us away from the main subject.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Can we know a little more about what type of guidance you expect in an high-end review? I expect magazines to publish articles that can provide some guidance, but not in subjective reviews.

IMHO superficial guidance or knowledge can do more harm than good. If people want guidance they should read books, such as Get Better Sound by Jim Smith, the FLoyd Toole book , The Complete Guide to High-End Audio by Robert Hartley or similar - I could list a lot more. However people must realize that these books are not the bible - they must me understood and compared, in such subjective matters people can be right and have very different approaches and opinions. Or simply rely on a dealer or mentor they trust, that will select a system and teach them how to get the best performance from it.

Again IMHO comparisons with car reviews can be extremely misleading. Car performance is objective, not illusionary, and only moves us away from the main subject.

Hi Micro,

Would you mind taking the magazine discussion to a new thread - it really detracts from the SME discussion just when it is back on track.

 

[microstrip]

Thanks Bonzo. I read that in March/April when it was released. Here is a summation of the sound by Fremer:

"Based on what I heard in the listening room the new Model 60 combines the 30's "gravity" with the Model 15's liveliness and excitement. I cannot wait to get one in for review. "

This seems like a good combination of attributes.

The model 60 was listened as a system using the new completely unknown tonearm. Just using the SME 30 with a Graham Phantom tonearm would change its tonal balance - many people own the SME's with alternative tonearms.

IMHO Fremer just wanted to increase our appetite for the turntable and his future review with this sentence. He managed to do it - we are already discussing the starters!

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Thanks Bonzo. I read that in March/April when it was released. Here is a summation of the sound by Fremer:

"Based on what I heard in the listening room the new Model 60 combines the 30's "gravity" with the Model 15's liveliness and excitement. I cannot wait to get one in for review. "

This seems like a good combination of attributes.

Hi Peter,

Agree that if Fremer’s initial comment above turns out to be true then it could be an interesting sounding TT indeed.

 

[bonzo75]

The model 60 was listened as a system using the new completely unknown tonearm. Just using the SME 30 with a Graham Phantom tonearm would change its tonal balance - many people own the SME's with alternative tonearms.

IMHO Fremer just wanted to increase our appetite for the turntable and his future review with this sentence. He managed to do it - we are already discussing the starters!

On the other hand he often uses follow ups to mention negatives of components, so this statement actually tells me what he found SME 30 and SME 15 lacking in.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

The model 60 was listened as a system using the new completely unknown tonearm. Just using the SME 30 with a Graham Phantom tonearm would change its tonal balance - many people own the SME's with alternative tonearms.

IMHO Fremer just wanted to increase our appetite for the turntable and his future review with this sentence. He managed to do it - we are already discussing the starters!

But since SME won’t sell this new arm separately it is actually very relevant to the package.

I don’t disagree that he is drumming up interest - fine by me. I am personally hoping he reviews it cos I like his reviews more than most. But more to point he is very experienced with other high end TTs that I would like to hear contrast against. Think he just bought the K3 from OMA.