Natural Sound

[Tangram]

I completely disagree: The number of systems you’ve owned yourself is totally irrelevant. What matters is how many different setups you’ve heard live (e.g., at dealers, shows, friends’ places, or studios), how you’ve trained your hearing through critical listening, and how many direct comparisons you’ve made.


Music is altered in 99% of cases already during mixing/mastering by the sound engineer – so „absolute fidelity“ is an illusion anyway. And your own system is always heard only in your own room, where acoustics set the ultimate limits.


Why owning your own high-end system can even be counterproductive when evaluating other people’s setups:


Habituation and bias: You get used to the sound of your own system (including room coloration) and subconsciously consider it „correct“. When hearing other setups, you compare to that reference and quickly judge deviations as „wrong“ instead of objectively.
Confirmation bias: Having invested a lot of money, people tend to defend and overrate their own gear. This leads to overemphasizing (or ignoring) differences in other systems to justify the purchase.

Lack of broad experience: Someone who’s tweaked just one or two personal systems for years often has less comparative exposure than a person who regularly hears many different rigs in various rooms. Trained listeners (e.g., engineers or reviewers) without a fixed personal reference are often more neutral and sensitive to nuances.
Room dominance: Your own gear always sounds in the context of your room – this distorts evaluations of other gear in different spaces because you carry your „room sound“ reference mentally.

Focus on gear over music: Many owners develop emotional attachment to their equipment („Gear Acquisition Syndrome“), listening more to the system than the music. This hinders objective assessment of foreign setups.

In summary: A solid opinion comes from broad, neutral listening experience and trained ears – not from expensive ownership.

Best Regards Swen

This is a terrific post Swen. Thank-you. I agree - hearing lots of systems helps refine what good sound is. But ultimately our tastes differ. One man’s “absolute sound” may be another’s meh. And that’s okay! It also makes one realize that (especially) speaker design and room/setup can have profound effects on sound. Take for example electrostatics, which to my ears have a way of enveloping the listener in sound. To me that’s the pinnacle of music reproduction, but others steadfastly stand by their box speakers and others their horns. Find the presentation that suits your tastes and leave it at that. Put a pin in your system, get off the merry-go-round, and use the money you save to do other things. In my case, that’s more records and live music!

Happy holidays from Canada.

 

[morricab]

Do you believe it’s fundamentally necessary to own your own stereo system in order to distinguish good, bad, or even perfect sound quality?
That would, after all, contradict all logic.


Best regards,
Swen

Hi Swen,
While it might not be fundamentally necessary to build your own system to be able to distinguish good, bad or ugly sound quality, it does demonstrate that you know how to "walk the walk".

In principle, I think that being a neutral arbiter is a good thing but you still have to somehow demonstrate that you know what you are talking about. You also have to be aware that not everyone will hear it the way you do and some of that is just down to differences in how humans perceive sound. In the absence of having your own system videos as a demonstration that you understand things, you have to resort to posting the videos of others.

What we have seen over the years is that the quality of videos of others posted by Ked are hit and miss, with almost as many poor sounding videos as really good sounding ones. Now, it is important to note that he believes that video sound is representative of the quality heard in the room...a view that is heavily challenged on this forum (I personally find that videos thin out and flatten the sound that one hears live).

So, what to make of someone who has set themselves up to be an arbiter of good sound when the video quality they post is highly variable, and importantly all we have to judge his discernment by, even if it is relatively consistent in terms of system types (lots of horns and tubes or other types of high sensitivity speakers)? Also, when someone dares to disagree with him, there is almost always an attack and often a personal one. Let the opinion stand for itself or defend it in a different way but not like this.

So, your point is logical, but it is incomplete and therefore you cannot reach a conclusion through logic without taking into account the demonstrated ability of that neutral arbiter, otherwise, it might be logical but you end up with bad decisions nevertheless.

 

[morricab]

all other talents being equal; a case can be strongly made that the best system arbiter is that one who is purely listening without ownership trappings to add unneeded gravity to the perceptions. especially when this independent listener has lots of experience in listening to many systems and live music. fair for demerits for lack of actual system building, but in my view is that is minor.

seriousness of purpose is the biggest thing.

But if the independent listener is not that good at listening...?

 

[andromedaaudio]

if it is irrelevant, why comment about it?

Post in thread 'Natural Sound'
https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/natural-sound.32867/post-1097719

Its kind of relevant because it demonstrates some sort of commitment of the reviewer in question

But since reviewers can purchase at 40 % of consumer prices where is the added value in the end??
Manufacturers also differ substantially in given discounts adding another variable.

But hey i notice people love buying of of reviewers opinions... eat your heart out man its your money.
Dont come complaining afterwards

 

[Mike Lavigne]

But if the independent listener is not that good at listening...?

until/unless you listen with them it's all conjecture. both ways. multiple times even better. over time we also listen to recommendations and see what we think, and that is part too. we then decide what weight to give or not give. respect gets earned. everyone who offers opinions goes down this road. then you take what seems best from the big pile. no one gets anointed in the real world. maybe in our minds.

trying to deny years of credible feedback seems quite petty.

 

[morricab]

Listening to many systems and also live music experience is just one part of this story so it is not the whole story. the important thing is your talent (IQ) to discover how different parameters affect on the sound. There are very important parameters that affect on comparing two components.
Room, speaker position, ac power quality, ground loops, ac polarity, signal polarity, Vibration, SNR and grounding, amplifier speaker matching, listener position, room sound, …

Check Romy website and read “mad mad mad electricity” topic, more than 100 pages and over 1000 posts about finding a proper solution for ac quality. Read Kedar website and you will not find one word about AC Power quality.

Check Jim Smith Book and he wrote about speaker position importance. Very informative book and helpful but when you read Kedar website you find nothing about speaker position importance.

This means Jim Smith and Romy think deeper than those who just change their gear every 6 months.

Thinking in depth is different to Kedar audio thinking who listen to A vs B in non ideal conditions and tell us A is better than B or not.

Did you ever see Kedar talk about speaker position or AC polarity?!!

You will not find any trusted information in Kedar website.

Audio judgment is not easy so I am not fan of Kedar audio thinking.

Yes, these individuals have an established track record of helping people achieve a sound that they think is a cut or two above the usual audiophile level. While I don't agree with all their conclusions, it is clear they have thought in-depth about what really makes good sound vs. what doesn't or is even detrimental. I would add Arthur Salvatore to that list and even some early writings from Harry Pearson.

There is one guy in Germany that I consider, if not a guru, then at least a kind of mentor. He was the importer of Kondo into Germany and coupled them with single driver speakers from Fertin. I also got exposure there to wonderful brands like Silvaweld (that later became Allnic), New Audio Frontiers (still my favorite Italian amp brand) and KR Audio. His choice of speakers was not always my favorite but damn, his analog (old pre-Audio Note Voyd with ZYX carts) and his amps were something else and totally won me over to SETs for the most natural sound.

 

[morricab]

until/unless you listen with them it's all conjecture. both ways. multiple times even better. over time we also listen to recommendations and see what we think, and that is part too. we then decide what weight to give or not give. respect gets earned. everyone who offers opinions goes down this road. then you take what seems best from the big pile.

trying to deny years of credible feedback seems quite petty.

Which credible feedback are you referring to specifically?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Which credible feedback are you referring to specifically?

well. the recommendation for my tube power supply DaVa Ref cartridge for one. a stone cold bang for the buck winner.

 

[morricab]

well. my tube power supply DaVa Ref cartridge for one. a stone cold winner.

Recommended to you by Ked, I presume?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Recommended to you by Ked, I presume?

and others, but mostly by him as far as me springing for it.

 

[bonzo75]

But if the independent listener is not that good at listening...?

You mean like you who recommended people underpowered systems for years, and things you sold as a dealer?

 

[Al M.]

You mean like you who recommended people underpowered systems for years,

Well, that's a big one.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Yes, these individuals have an established track record of helping people achieve a sound that they think is a cut or two above the usual audiophile level. While I don't agree with all their conclusions, it is clear they have thought in-depth about what really makes good sound vs. what doesn't or is even detrimental. I would add Arthur Salvatore to that list and even some early writings from Harry Pearson.

There is one guy in Germany that I consider, if not a guru, then at least a kind of mentor. He was the importer of Kondo into Germany and coupled them with single driver speakers from Fertin. I also got exposure there to wonderful brands like Silvaweld (that later became Allnic), New Audio Frontiers (still my favorite Italian amp brand) and KR Audio. His choice of speakers was not always my favorite but damn, his analog (old pre-Audio Note Voyd with ZYX carts) and his amps were something else and totally won me over to SETs for the most natural sound.

agree.

i think serious hobbyists all have their circle of people who influence them. at least we hope they do as it makes the experience much richer. the collective is more capable than the individual. mutual two way influence effects are maybe the norm. when i gaze around my room i can see personalities and feedback behind many items and am thankful. maybe a few discoveries more on my own too.

otherwise we get a bit inbred.

the same with music too. for me especially the classical music where i was clueless. had some good guidance and now it's been such a rich go-to place to dwell.

 

[Hornsolutions Swen]

Hi Swen,
While it might not be fundamentally necessary to build your own system to be able to distinguish good, bad or ugly sound quality, it does demonstrate that you know how to "walk the walk".

In principle, I think that being a neutral arbiter is a good thing but you still have to somehow demonstrate that you know what you are talking about. You also have to be aware that not everyone will hear it the way you do and some of that is just down to differences in how humans perceive sound. In the absence of having your own system videos as a demonstration that you understand things, you have to resort to posting the videos of others.

What we have seen over the years is that the quality of videos of others posted by Ked are hit and miss, with almost as many poor sounding videos as really good sounding ones. Now, it is important to note that he believes that video sound is representative of the quality heard in the room...a view that is heavily challenged on this forum (I personally find that videos thin out and flatten the sound that one hears live).

So, what to make of someone who has set themselves up to be an arbiter of good sound when the video quality they post is highly variable, and importantly all we have to judge his discernment by, even if it is relatively consistent in terms of system types (lots of horns and tubes or other types of high sensitivity speakers)? Also, when someone dares to disagree with him, there is almost always an attack and often a personal one. Let the opinion stand for itself or defend it in a different way but not like this.

So, your point is logical, but it is incomplete and therefore you cannot reach a conclusion through logic without taking into account the demonstrated ability of that neutral arbiter, otherwise, it might be logical but you end up with bad decisions nevertheless.

I won’t contradict those statements, as they aren’t directly intended as counterarguments to what I’ve said.

In my opinion, judging the sound of a hi-fi system based on a video is completely nonsensical. Even professionally recorded videos can at best convey tonality and dynamics—everything else remains unclear. If that’s what bothers you, that’s perfectly fine with me.

In my view, videos should only ever be used to demonstrate the visual aspects of a speaker or turntable—things like build quality, design, etc.


Sound has to be heard in person.


Best regards,
Swen

 

[Hornsolutions Swen]

Hi Peter,

I’ve just added a few comments here and taken a moment to look back at what this thread was originally about. I think it has once again completely spiraled out of control and totally missed the original point.

That’s why I’d like to apologize at this point for my part in derailing your thread.


Best regards,
Swen

 

[morricab]

Well, that's a big one.

It’s a nothing burger because it’s all speculation on his part.

 

[PeterA]

I completely disagree: The number of systems you’ve owned yourself is totally irrelevant. What matters is how many different setups you’ve heard live (e.g., at dealers, shows, friends’ places, or studios), how you’ve trained your hearing through critical listening, and how many direct comparisons you’ve made.

Swen, I agree with your position that one does not need to own his own system to be considered an expert. However, I think it depends on what topic one seeks expertise. If you are listening and judging the quality of an audio system, you need experience with live music and many different systems. Bonzo is accumulating this level of experience.

I can tell you from my own experience having played with my own systems, that one learns things about set up and can improve his critical listening skills when making adjustments to his system in his room over long periods of time. David Karmeli told me after the new system he sold me was set up in my room and playing music that now "the real learning begins". He was right. Experimenting with cartridge fine tuning, speaker placement, room acoustics, component substitutions, volume adjustments, it all contributes to more knowledge and experience. This knowledge and experience can indeed improve critical listening skills and supplement the experiences of hearing other systems and live music.

So, it depends what kind of advice or guidance one wants. I have gotten some nice music recommendations from Kedar and enjoy reading his thoughts on systems and the exposure his videos provide of systems around the world. I have also met Romy the Cat twice and have had various conversations with him and read his blog. He knows things that Bonzo does not know about set up and electronics and building gear. He also shares some wonderful introspective thinking about the hobby. I have learned something from each of them. The value of what they share is for each of us something we judge for ourselves.

Both men have experience with live music and systems, and each has different areas of knowledge and experience. I can tell you that Romy has learned much from David Karmeli and seeks out his advice. I also know that Bonzo visited DDK early in his development and took away some lessons from Utah, whether he shares them or admits it or not.

Finally, I also learned some things from Jim Smith as well. I read his book and sat with him over a couple days he "voiced my system to my room." He suggested the speaker movements while I moved things around and heard the results of the experiments. It is interesting to note that when I met Romy, Jim, and David, each had tubes and horns as a main system. Kedar seems to prefer this approach as well. Since then, I too have moved in that direction.

 

[PeterA]

Yes, but that wasn’t the point at all. The question was whether someone (in this case Kedar) can be denied the right to evaluate sound quality just because he doesn’t own a hi-fi system himself. On that, I’m very clear: owning your own system is completely secondary when it comes to recognizing and assessing good sound.


At our demo sessions, I’ve had two quite well-known conductors present. One of them spent over ten years with the Berlin Philharmonic, and both of them didn’t own a stereo system at all until after their 60th birthday. Yet both had better hearing than I do—and better than many reviewers or audiophiles with million-dollar setups will ever have.

This isn’t meant to question your opinion or your passion for the hobby in any way. So please don’t take it personally. The only person who was attacked here was Kedar, and that was definitely unjustified—at least in this specific case.

Best Regards Swen

I agree with all of this Swen, but I think the broader question that we are discussing is what makes an expert? The debate was about Kedar and Romy. I would answer that it depends. Expert in what area of audio or music? Kedar makes some good recording recommendations and recognizes certain systems and videos that sound good. I agree with many of his opinions. He has broad listening experience and exposure to many systems. I admire that and am envious.

I would not ask Kedar cartridge fine tuning advice or questions about power delivery or equipment stands or speaker positioning. For these kinds of things, I would seek out other advisors. Jim Smith is a great set up guy, for instance. My friend the former archivist at the Vienna Opera and Philharmonic, Dr. Peter Poltun, knows a great deal about classical music and recordings. Again, it depends on what kind of expertise one wants.

 

[PeterA]

Hi Peter,

I’ve just added a few comments here and taken a moment to look back at what this thread was originally about. I think it has once again completely spiraled out of control and totally missed the original point.

That’s why I’d like to apologize at this point for my part in derailing your thread.


Best regards,
Swen

No worries Swen. The important part of this long thread is the first page plus the later section on the turntable comparison. The rest is mostly chatter and jousting.