Natural Sound

[PeterA]

The DST seems to have quite boosted your system on dynamic range, midrange, tone, flow, and general engagement. But I agree with Rob’s observation, both on BS and this version of Scheherazade midbass seems to be missing. You had more first so either cart is not burned in or some adjustment to be done

Thank you for your opinion Kedar. It would be interesting to learn your impression if you actually heard of the system in the room. I had found that I actually had too much midbass at the listening seat so I increased the control setting on the upper horn to reduce it very slightly. When I listen to live jazz or classical, the bass never really draws attention to itself unless it’s an isolated tympani whack or double bass solo. Usually the bass just keeps rhythm and it is not emphasized over the other instruments. Hello this also depends on the recording or the pressing. I also wonder if the video replay system goes down low enough to be representative of the experience in the room. The Sonny Rollins midbass presentation sounds pretty natural to me and balanced relative to the saxophone. I guess it’s a matter of taste and preference.

I did go to a Led Zeppelin tribute concert last night with the mid base was overwhelming. Drums and electric bass jumped out from everything else on basically every song. That chest pounding experience was fun and it was a great show but it’s not how unamplified jazz and classical sounds to me in a good concert hall.

We all make our choices in gear and set up based on our target. You seem to be set on your preference for dual front loaded horn woofers. And of course our targets can change over time, as mine certainly did. I appreciate your comments.

 

[bonzo75]

Thank you for your opinion Kedar. It would be interesting to learn your impression if you actually heard of the system in the room. I had found that I actually had too much midbass at the listening seat so I increased the control setting on the upper horn to reduce it very slightly. When I listen to live jazz or classical, the base never really draw attention to herself unless it’s an isolated tympani whack or double bass solo. Usually the base just keeps rhythm and it is not emphasized over the other instruments. I guess it’s a matter of taste and preference.

I did go to a Led Zeppelin tribute concert last night with the mid base was overwhelming. Drums and electric base jumped out from everything else on basically every song. That chest pounding experience was fun and it was a great show but it’s not how unamplified jazz and classical sounds to me in a good concert hall.

We all make our choices in gear and set up based on our target. And of course it is subject could change over time. I appreciate your comments.

Has the cart done 50 hours or more yet?

 

[PeterA]

Has the cart done 50 hours or more yet?

It’s about 30 hours, but I talked to the manufacturer and he said it needs very few hours to break in, perhaps two or three. I was surprised. This cartridge is very responsive to set up so in your system, you might choose a slightly different tracking force for instance or fractions of 1 mm higher or lower VTA.

 

[DasguteOhr]

The Neumann dst has no cantilever suspension that needs to be run in, the only thing that can be magnetic settlement effects (new)by measuring the cartridge in fabrication.
The Compliance 3.6 x 10 is generated by the length of the cantilever.

 

[Urowolf]

I'm in Boynton Beach in July. Are you close?

So sorry I missed this. We are in Winter Haven, FL. Very welcome to visit any time.

 

[Al M.]

Hello Jeff, it is still early days as I just installed the cartridge over the weekend. I can say it sounds very promising as it seems to combine the best qualities of my other two cartridges, the sense of mass and weight of the vintage Ortofon, and the resolution of the Colibrí.

I have now heard the DST cartridge twice in Peter's system (yes, the actual system, not system video), and his description of the cartridge above is spot on. It is the more complete cartridge of the three.

The greater weight of sound compared to the Colibri was immediately evident on string trio, as was the greater resolution compared to the Ortofon. Detail was very good; string pizzicati in particular sounded convincing in tone and harmonics, detail precision and presence. Standup bass on jazz sounded excellent and convincing; this is a strength of the bass corner horn.

I did hear distortion on some music the first time, as well as lack of body in the left hand of the piano. All this was greatly improved the second time, when Peter had changed to the shorter KL Audio adapter described in #6945 (previous page 348) which apparently makes for a tighter connection than in the setup used for the larger adapter. He also had changed the horn crossover back to the more extended setting that he had originally; with the greater weight of the sound of the new cartridge this was the better option. Sonny Rollins' tenor saxophone sounded full-bodied and open.

Detail on the solo violin of Ida Haendel in Britten's violin concerto was great. This is a recording that Peter thankfully introduced me to and which I love, also on my system.

 

[bonzo75]

I have now heard the DST cartridge twice in Peter's system (yes, the actual system, not system video), and his description of the cartridge above is spot on. It is the more complete cartridge of the three.

This is very evident from videos too.

 

[PeterA]

I have now heard the DST cartridge twice in Peter's system (yes, the actual system, not system video), and his description of the cartridge above is spot on. It is the more complete cartridge of the three.

The greater weight of sound compared to the Colibri was immediately evident on string trio, as was the greater resolution compared to the Ortofon. Detail was very good; string pizzicati in particular sounded convincing in tone and harmonics, detail precision and presence. Standup bass on jazz sounded excellent and convincing; this is a strength of the bass corner horn.

I did hear distortion on some music the first time, as well as lack of body in the left hand of the piano. All this was greatly improved the second time, when Peter had changed to the shorter KL Audio adapter described in #6945 (previous page 348) which apparently makes for a tighter connection than in the setup used for the larger adapter. He also had changed the horn crossover back to the more extended setting that he had originally; with the greater weight of the sound of the new cartridge this was the better option. Sonny Rollins' tenor saxophone sounded full-bodied and open.

Detail on the solo violin of Ida Haendel in Britten's violin concerto was great. This is a recording that Peter thankfully introduced me to and which I love, also on my system.

Thanks for sharing your impressions Al. I enjoyed those listening sessions. I have one small correction to mention. The level control on the speaker’s crossover does not change HF extension, it simply adjusted the overall volume level of the 500 Hz to 15k Hz upper horn relative to the bass horn.

 

[Al M.]

Thanks for sharing your impressions Al. I enjoyed those listening sessions.

Me too, Peter.

I have one small correction to mention. The level control on the speaker’s crossover does not change HF extension, it simply adjusted the overall volume level of the 500 Hz to 15k Hz upper horn relative to the bass horn.

Makes sense, thank you.

 

[bonzo75]

Thanks for sharing your impressions Al. I enjoyed those listening sessions. I have one small correction to mention. The level control on the speaker’s crossover does not change HF extension, it simply adjusted the overall volume level of the 500 Hz to 15k Hz upper horn relative to the bass horn.

500hz? How did that change the midbass?

 

[PeterA]

500hz? How did that change the midbass?

500 Hz is the crossover point between the two drivers. The level control simply changes the balance between the two drivers.

I find that turning down the level of the upper horn brings a little bit more weight to the presentation when I play the Colibrí cartridge.

With the DST, the presentation sounds most natural when the upper horn is not attenuated.

 

[Ron Resnick]

The level control simply changes the balance between the two drivers. I find that turning down the level of the upper horn brings a little bit more weight to the presentation when I play the Colibrí cartridge.

This is a type of woofer-cooking! Welcome to the world of driver output manipulation!

 

[PeterA]

This is a type of woofer-cooking! Welcome to the world of driver output manipulation!

I don’t have any idea what you mean by woofer cooking Ron. I’m not doing anything to the woofer output. I am simply controlling the relative level of the upper horn. Ralph made some reference to early horn speakers having this ability as being necessary when driven by SET’s back in the day for proper tonal balance.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I don’t have any idea what you mean by woofer cooking Ron. I’m not doing anything to the woofer output. I am simply controlling the relative level of the upper horn.

Yes, I know that. But whether you raise the level of the woofer, or you attenuate the level of the tweeter, you arrive in the same place: the discretionary manipulation of SPL output from each driver to achieve your sonic objective.

I'm not criticizing you; I'm applauding.

 

[DasguteOhr]

In the past, tone controls on the preamp/amp were used for this. They gave voices/instruments a bit more body. Or they liked the music, but the vocal silblance was exaggerated during recording. It wasn't a problem at all. At some point, someone said tone controls aren't high-end; they're in the signal path and degrade the sound. Complete nonsense. You can almost turn off with a switch. Sansui find perfect frequency points for that.

 

[gleeds]

The driver primarily affects tonality in relation to the midrange. Room boundary amplification is the primary driver of bass amplitude relative to midrange; next, I suppose, is absorption in the room. At Von Schweikert, our loudspeakers adjust bass amplitude (and, on more expensive models, high frequencies as well), always in relationship to the midrange.

Ron, I believe your approach was born of wanting to utilize two different amplifiers for bi-amping your Clarysis without the use of an active crossover, and the results have been quite good. In my experience, it's nearly always the woofer that benefits most from amplitude adjustment.

 

[gleeds]

In the past, tone controls on the preamp/amp were used for this. They gave voices/instruments a bit more body. Or they liked the music, but the vocal silblance was exaggerated during recording. It wasn't a problem at all. At some point, someone said tone controls aren't high-end; they're in the signal path and degrade the sound. Complete nonsense. You can almost turn off with a switch. Sansui find perfect frequency points for that.View attachment 159676

Prety nice tone control

 

[Al M.]

In the past, tone controls on the preamp/amp were used for this. They gave voices/instruments a bit more body. Or they liked the music, but the vocal silblance was exaggerated during recording. It wasn't a problem at all. At some point, someone said tone controls aren't high-end; they're in the signal path and degrade the sound. Complete nonsense. You can almost turn off with a switch. Sansui find perfect frequency points for that.View attachment 159676

Agreed. It's one of the silliest "high-end" inventions of the last few decades to declare that tone controls compromise the "purity" of the signal path. The Octave HP 700 preamp has an optional tone control which I did choose for my unit. Even though I rarely use it, it can come in extremely handy with some recordings to make them listenable (I sometimes use it on bass-shy rock recordings, life saver, really).

The tone control is very, very transparent, but when not using it, you simply bypass it entirely with a switch -- so there you have your "purity" of signal path after all. In other words, there is no rational reason to have no tone control at all in the high-end.

 

[DasguteOhr]

Prety nice tone control

View attachment 159677

Amazing quality..precision next level

 

[microstrip]

Prety nice tone control

View attachment 159677

In fact. I owned it at the end of the 1990's. Mark Levinson came to the opening of his shop in Lisbon and we spend a day with him maneuvering the six tone controls - sometimes very small and quickly done corrections to tonality that could improve significantly many recordings, that come from average to great sounding.

Unfortunately I did not have his expertise and although the device could do wonders, I found myself spending all my time tweaking the controls, little time left to listen to music. So after some time I sold it to Japan - a stupid move, they are now worth three to four times what I get fro it at that time.

The Audio Palette was usually mounted in an wheeled acrylic charriot and was kept close to the listener, using the 20-30 feet double String cables.

BTW, I would love to hear from someone who had tried one of the Mark Levinson latest creations, the Master Class software https://www.danielhertz.com/products/master-class