Munich High-End 2018 Ron Report: Goebel Divin Majestic

853guy

Active Member
Aug 14, 2013
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#81
Perhaps someone can purchase a pair of Divin Majestics, a pair of Ultra 11s, a pair of Arrakises and a pair of Gryphon Trident IIs, and a pair of VAC Statement 450s and a full Kronos front-end, and rent out a large listening room and a platoon of moving men to have an ultimate one column, dynamic driver speaker comparison. Tang?

Many of us WBF members then would fly to the location for lengthy comparison auditions.

The funny thing is I would not be at all surprised if 25% of the listeners found each loudspeaker to be their favorite speaker.
Hello Ron,

My experience would suggest something different. When it comes to SOTA systems in general, and specifically, SOTA speakers, greater divergence of preference exists relative to lesser or entry level systems/speakers. Polarisation of opinion becomes the norm rather than the exception, meaning I think it would be more likely for a split in preference of none of them, or one or more of them (50% who dislike all, 50% who prefer one or more of the four), rather an even split between each of the four (25% of all prefer one or the other).

Hope you're well!

853guy
 

GMKF

VIP/Donor
Aug 15, 2017
397
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Munich
#82
Perhaps someone can purchase a pair of Divin Majestics, a pair of Ultra 11s, a pair of Arrakises and a pair of Gryphon Trident IIs, and a pair of VAC Statement 450s and a full Kronos front-end, and rent out a large listening room and a platoon of moving men to have an ultimate one column, dynamic driver speaker comparison. Tang?

Many of us WBF members then would fly to the location for lengthy comparison auditions.

The funny thing is I would not be at all surprised if 25% of the listeners found each loudspeaker to be their favorite speaker.
Hey ! Don't forget to bring some SS amps !
Then I'll join the party....
 

Tango

VIP/Donor
Mar 12, 2017
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#83
Perhaps someone can purchase a pair of Divin Majestics, a pair of Ultra 11s, a pair of Arrakises and a pair of Gryphon Trident IIs, and a pair of VAC Statement 450s and a full Kronos front-end, and rent out a large listening room and a platoon of moving men to have an ultimate one column, dynamic driver speaker comparison. Tang?

Many of us WBF members then would fly to the location for lengthy comparison auditions.

The funny thing is I would not be at all surprised if 25% of the listeners found each loudspeaker to be their favorite speaker.
Nice to know you miss me Ron. :)

I am no speaker person. But I do agree with you about the 25%. (The 25% is just a figure of speech I believe.)

Kindest regards,
Tang
 

Mike Lavigne

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 25, 2010
7,522
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#84
I think any of these 'uber' speakers need extended system tuning and gear synergy to reach optimization.......not to mention a room that fits their energy projection. they are not plug and play. so some sort of 'Harmon' speaker testing room and switch process is not worth the time to even think about.

they are too capable to properly understand out of context.

the sum can be much greater than the individual parts, or much less.

audio shows allow us to consider ideas, but not find any proof......good or bad.
 
May 30, 2010
15,211
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Portugal
#85
(...) so some sort of 'Harmon' speaker testing room and switch process is not worth the time to even think about. (...)
When I read Ron post I considered suggesting the borrow of a famous automated speaker shuffler, but did not dare ...;)
 

Ron Resnick

Site Co-Owner, Administrator
Jan 25, 2015
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#86
I think any of these 'uber' speakers need extended system tuning and gear synergy to reach optimization.......not to mention a room that fits their energy projection. they are not plug and play. so some sort of 'Harmon' speaker testing room and switch process is not worth the time to even think about.

they are too capable to properly understand out of context.

the sum can be much greater than the individual parts, or much less.

audio shows allow us to consider ideas, but not find any proof......good or bad.
To reach “optimization” — I agree.

But I was not imagining optimization; I was imagining merely a relatively even playing field for comparison purposes.
 

Al M.

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Sep 10, 2013
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#87
I think any of these 'uber' speakers need extended system tuning and gear synergy to reach optimization.......not to mention a room that fits their energy projection. they are not plug and play. so some sort of 'Harmon' speaker testing room and switch process is not worth the time to even think about.

they are too capable to properly understand out of context.

the sum can be much greater than the individual parts, or much less.

audio shows allow us to consider ideas, but not find any proof......good or bad.
Well said. The better sound at shows often comes from smaller speakers. You just drop them into the room and there you go. Well, it's not quite that easy, but...

But what do you expect from half a day set-up.
 

Al M.

VIP/Donor
Sep 10, 2013
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Greater Boston
#88
To reach “optimization” — I agree.

But I was not imagining optimization; I was imagining merely a relatively even playing field for comparison purposes.
As Mike said, "or much less". Non-optimized sound can be still good -- or it can range from mediocre to atrocious.
 

Mike Lavigne

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 25, 2010
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#89
To reach “optimization” — I agree.

But I was not imagining optimization; I was imagining merely a relatively even playing field for comparison purposes.
the point was that the concept of 'even playing field' is the wrong way to look at it. the more capable the speaker, the greater the need for allowing these involved designs to have their unique needs allowed to be fully expressed. broad brush approaches will diminish their strengths and limit the usefulness of the efforts to find actual preference truth.

especially the greater levels of driver surface the more extreme room tuning is required to control it. ultimate detail retrieval also requires near perfect amplifier matching for proper natural refined tonal balance. active bass designs put significant emphasis on maintaining coherence.
 

Tango

VIP/Donor
Mar 12, 2017
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#90
I think any of these 'uber' speakers need extended system tuning and gear synergy to reach optimization.......not to mention a room that fits their energy projection. they are not plug and play. so some sort of 'Harmon' speaker testing room and switch process is not worth the time to even think about.

they are too capable to properly understand out of context.

the sum can be much greater than the individual parts, or much less.

audio shows allow us to consider ideas, but not find any proof......good or bad.
Dear Mike,

I wish we live closer or have that Beam me up Scottie machine.
Would have been so much fun visiting each other.

Kindest regards,
Tang
 

morricab

Well-Known Member
Apr 25, 2014
3,146
380
83
Switzerland
#91
I just saw a picture of that room. Did it have a slanted glass ceiling?? I guess you have to live with whatever they give you. I am not sure I understand the dynamics or the connection between Gobel, Vitus and Purist in that room.
They maybe could have rotated the system 90° so there was no glass behind?
 

Mike Lavigne

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 25, 2010
7,522
607
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#92
Dear Mike,

I wish we live closer or have that Beam me up Scottie machine.
Would have been so much fun visiting each other.

Kindest regards,
Tang
Dear Tang,

me too. hopefully it will happen one of these days.

best regards,

Mike
 

Ron Resnick

Site Co-Owner, Administrator
Jan 25, 2015
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#93
the point was that the concept of 'even playing field' is the wrong way to look at it. the more capable the speaker, the greater the need for allowing these involved designs to have their unique needs allowed to be fully expressed. broad brush approaches will diminish their strengths and limit the usefulness of the efforts to find actual preference truth.

especially the greater levels of driver surface the more extreme room tuning is required to control it. ultimate detail retrieval also requires near perfect amplifier matching for proper natural refined tonal balance. active bass designs put significant emphasis on maintaining coherence.

Purely as a theoretical exercise, regardless of cost or practicality, how would you propose to compare directly these four loudspeakers?
 

Mike Lavigne

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 25, 2010
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#94
Purely as a theoretical exercise, regardless of cost or practicality, how would you propose to compare directly these four loudspeakers?
philosophically first you would have to decide what is your goal. is this about what you like best personally (preference)? or are you attempting to pick a winner (some slight degree of objectivity)? if preference then only one person need to listen. but if a winner is desired I would suggest three judges.

as you mention; you would need a big reasonably shaped room, proper acoustics, solid floor, good power grid, 10 foot+ tall ceiling, low ambient noise floor, and some logistical support.

I would make 4 lists; (1) what the speakers have in common, (2) where they are a little different, (3) where they are more different, and (4) where they are very different.

depending on in what ways, and to what degrees, the speakers are different, you would have to decide whether you wanted to just use one amplifier, or try to optimize amps for each speaker. debatable whether this might render any comparison as hopelessly invalid. with different amps, you might need different preamps.

beyond the amplifier/preamp most other gear should work for each speaker, but possibly cables and tweaks might vary depending....again.....on differences and degrees. tastes enter too, of course.

if I have not put you to sleep already, it might be more clear by now why this idea is not really helpful. all these speakers need to be in mature systems with extreme levels of optimization. unless you approach that standard then you just don't have any answers, just fleeting glimpses of potential.

after you figured out the amp/preamp question, you would then set up each speaker in the room and take two weeks (yes, two weeks with each set of speakers) to work on set-up and acoustical room tuning and listening geometry. record all the details, and do a dry run or two so your logistical people got the switch process down pat and you could predictably make the change in a predictable time.....hopefully a few hours.

then pick the music and do it.

you would be crazy to go to such efforts, but something like that would be needed to approach any proper answer.
 
Last edited:

spiritofmusic

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2013
8,259
792
113
E. England
#95
How about this Ron.
Hire a large hotel in Europe, maybe the MOC.
Put these big flagship spkrs in different rooms, and visit each room to listen to them.
Oh wait, that’s what just happened at the Munich show, or certainly could happen if Rockport exhibited.
The laboured point I’m making is even if you did get the potential circumstances, it’s still not going to happen.
And if it did happen there’d still be some reason why the comparison would be faulty.
Very few people choose a piece of gear solely because it sounds the best. Even in the uber high end other factors are at play.
A Magico fan is likely not to be a VS or Rockport fan.
Uber customers are maybe likely to choose a brand, and then invest in it.
Unless I’m wrong, and these uber customers are travelling across a dozen dealerships to hear each uber spkr in isolation, and then making a choice.
 
May 30, 2010
15,211
561
113
Portugal
#96
Purely as a theoretical exercise, regardless of cost or practicality, how would you propose to compare directly these four loudspeakers?
If I was really interested in any of these speakers I would contact the manufacturer/distributor to ask for a demo in what they consider the best conditions - private audition, shop, factory - informing him about the size of my room and specifying I would want to carry my usual evaluation recordings.

Comparing them "directly" would be misleading.
 

Priaptor

Member Sponsor
Jan 29, 2012
929
2
0
FL
#97
If I was really interested in any of these speakers I would contact the manufacturer/distributor to ask for a demo in what they consider the best conditions - private audition, shop, factory - informing him about the size of my room and specifying I would want to carry my usual evaluation recordings.

Comparing them "directly" would be misleading.
I couldn’t agree more.

Of course the issue even after demoing in the manner you suggest and ultimately making your choice will be, will you, in your room and with your equipment be able to reproduce what you heard.
 

Ron Resnick

Site Co-Owner, Administrator
Jan 25, 2015
6,510
943
113
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#98
philosophically first you would have to decide what is your goal. is this about what you like best personally (preference)? or are you attempting to pick a winner (some slight degree of objectivity)? if preference then only one person need to listen. but if a winner is desired I would suggest three judges.

as you mention; you would need a big reasonably shaped room, proper acoustics, solid floor, good power grid, 10 foot+ tall ceiling, low ambient noise floor, and some logistical support.

I would make 4 lists; (1) what the speakers have in common, (2) where they are a little different, (3) where they are more different, and (4) where they are very different.

depending on in what ways, and to what degrees, the speakers are different, you would have to decide whether you wanted to just use one amplifier, or try to optimize amps for each speaker. debatable whether this might render any comparison as hopelessly invalid. with different amps, you might need different preamps.

beyond the amplifier/preamp most other gear should work for each speaker, but possibly cables and tweaks might vary depending....again.....on differences and degrees. tastes enter too, of course.

if I have not put you to sleep already, it might be more clear by now why this idea is not really helpful. all these speakers need to be in mature systems with extreme levels of optimization. unless you approach that standard then you just don't have any answers, just fleeting glimpses of potential.

after you figured out the amp/preamp question, you would then set up each speaker in the room and take two weeks (yes, two weeks with each set of speakers) to work on set-up and acoustical room tuning and listening geometry. record all the details, and do a dry run or two so your logistical people got the switch process down pat and you could predictably make the change in a predictable time.....hopefully a few hours.

then pick the music and do it.

you would be crazy to go to such efforts, but something like that would be needed to approach any proper answer.
Yes, I agree Mike. Doing this exercise correctly would require the enormous exertions and efforts you describe. Simply bringing in four pairs of speakers on a giant rotating turntable built into the floor just won’t do it.
 
#99
Yes, I agree Mike. Doing this exercise correctly would require the enormous exertions and efforts you describe. Simply bringing in four pairs of speakers on a giant rotating turntable built into the floor just won’t do it.
Hello Ron and it was a pleasure to finally meet you and chat.
I won't make any comments here on my opinion of what I heard throughout the show. I don't believe that would be considered a positive or a professional thing to do.
I do want to thank all the people that came and visited our rooms, The Divin room was packed consistently to overflow throughout the four days.
Some things I would like to mention to those who were not able to observe them or did not attend

These rooms have glass back walls ( windows) and the entire front of the rooms are glass as well.
Some of the rooms are smaller and have metal ceilings that are slanted, This is true for many but not all. There are a few rooms that did not fit either criteria but that is only the corner areas that I observed and they have plenty of glass as well.
They room owner gets one day to move all of their gear, furniture room treatments signs etc, into the rooms and set it up for the show.
These are the facts folks, I have to say that most did an amazing job of making these empty shells look great and professional looking. I know from experience that getting them to sound good is quite another story.
I think that if I was interested in buying a state of the art system I would do just that. I would listen to systems because that is always what you are hearing. Its not just one item and there are many opinions and tastes need to be addressed here.
I don't agree on the tube for SS debate my response is what does the system sound like. Does it engage me on an emotional level? Does it sound like real music? Does it disappear? Does it transport me? I like time machines and I think that this is very very difficult to achieve and especially at a show.
We all have to make choices and so do the manufacturers displaying their products. I think a show serves a purpose and that is to give you a taste of what is available and if you find that interesting you should definitely seek out a place to really listen to the SYSTEM and perhaps the system you are interested in assembling.
I like single system in a room since that is the only way I am going to use it.
Ron thank you for your time and kind words and perhaps when my room is completed you can visit and we can listen and talk some more.
warm regards,
Elliot
 

Leif S

Industry Expert
Feb 14, 2015
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