More Consensus That Streaming Is An Inferior Format & Not High End?

[Kingrex]

I don't know if there is a difference between what you purchase and download from Qobuz to what is for streaming. I just see everything offered in 24/192 now. I seriously question how that file was made. Maybe its all up and up and the label went and released both copies to Qobuz. Maybe someone has better insite into what we are streaming.

 

[caesar]

My feelings are just fine, but thank you for your concern!

Yes, I consider comments that Taiko gets “blown away” or “obliterated” by (whatever) to be ignorant. And other comments (like the Bugatti in a parking in a parking lot) seem to come from an attitude of just wanting to stir things up. I don’t sense any honest curiosity in these comments.

I appreciate opinions that don’t align with my own experiences when the’re stated with intelligence.

I think cd/ vinyl / tape / streaming can all be excellent ways to experience recorded music. My experience Is that any big differences reside in the original recording/mastering and the efficacy of the system set up.

And I don’t feel the urge to promote ideas of superiority of any one method with ridiculous flame throwing. Maybe for some, it’s a psychological necessity to put down other methods to prop up their own choices?

Feeling not hurt?!?

Let me quote Valin again for you:

"...Switching over to hi-res streaming via Qobuz was, once again, a shock. I'm used to streaming; I've grown to like it (or, at least, to tolerate it). But in comparison to the physical disc, the sound of the Qobuz stream of Blues for the Soul through the Dream-Play XC DAC was like the taste of a glass of 2019 Chateau De Beaucastel Chateauneuf Du-Pape Hommage à Jacques Perrin into which some fool has poured an equal amount of tap water. Everything was weakened, watered down, diluted in color, flattened in body, made ordinary, listless, digitally flavorless. ..."

Again, we are sharing and describing experiences we have had, choose, or refuse to partake in, based on their personal goals, while providing rationale. And insecure guys, who obtain their self esteem by thinking somehow the cosmos will align everyone's preferences, are wigging out.

Yet again, I said this in my original post : " ....But obviously other people have had different experiences to form their opinions - either via different perception or via being experientially impoverished.

And the experiences people have in their minds are completely different from what others have in their minds. Disagreements will go on forever ...".

 

[Rexp]

This is not necessary, as the song you listen to is buffered locally. So we need a good quality source file provided by the streaming service, and a good system to play it back on.

My streamer is my laptop, can you tell me why 24/192 tracks on Tidal stutter, whereas lower res stuff is fine?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

My streamer is my laptop, can you tell me why 24/192 tracks on Tidal stutter, whereas lower res stuff is fine?

the only 192/24 tracks on Tidal are MQA. so your laptop might not like those. maybe there is some sort of work around for it.

 

[Rexp]

the only 192/24 tracks on Tidal are MQA. so your laptop might not like those. maybe there is some sort of work around for it.

No, some are now FLAC so cleary my streamer is not buffering the track, example:

 

[ihmeyers]

Want true high end streaming? That’s what it might take. High speed optical fiber technology from Qobuz servers down to your listening room, with the absolutely lowest latency, and you work on optimizing every last bit of the chain. That’s not practical now, but perhaps one day, there will be a large enough market for true high end streaming.

I wouldn't hold my breath for that. When I moved to Atlanta I hired a tech guy to install a network here (and outdoor system/home theater). He said this job was basically a mid-level job for him and that his typical install starts at $100k. He's been doing for this 10 years and he told me this is the first install he's every done with streaming audio appliances (Esoteric, couple of Lumins, LDMS server, etc.). $20k projectors/screens, full house automation? Yes. Roon, Quobuz? He'd never heard of them.

I'd love to see it get to the point where there's high speed fiber everywhere connecting an end-use to Quobuz or Tidal but that's never going to happen in our lifetime. I haven't even been able to find a neighbor with a dedicated 2-channel system.

 

[XV-1]

yes.....I could do that. but the problem here for me is the end game question. meaning let's say I find a different result than Roy Gregory, that discs are much more clearly superior. what is in it for me?

honestly nothing. not going back to discs.....I simply find that streaming compliments my analog as an overall experience much better. being able to explore new music and layers and layers of information is just too valuable, to invest in having to buy new discs. and I already have almost 100% of my discs ripped. the elegance of streaming as an experience is just too good.

and a much more attractive alternative is adding many more super high rez files; dxd (352/24) and 4xdsd files. discs can't touch those. I'm now waiting for Samsung to bring out 16tb drives that work in my Wadax Reference Server so I can switch from my 4 x 8tb drives equalling 34tb's of storage to 4 x 16tb = 66tb and have much more room to add those files. I love how those files sound.

note; the Wadax server has resident 2tb of storage which is why the math is off.

if I'm offered the opportunity to have a Wadax transport to play around with I will do it. I have the interest if it's otherwise easy for me. certainly I am curious and do think about it.

but investing in it?......not in the cards for me.

as a final thought; I wonder if anyone has recently, with top level streaming gear such as the Taiko Extreme or Wadax with a quality network set-up, gone deep into ultimate streaming, spent the time with it, and then backed away from it and did only discs? where the overall streaming equation was not strong enough to justify it's use as the main digital focus? this is who might shed some light on things.....not the disc lover who looks on from afar leaning in marginal streaming exposure for justification. the pull of thousands of familiar silver discs is powerful.....I get it. not any different than loving your records. I still look at my CD's and have a strong bond to so many of them.

Well said Mike.

my thoughts exactly but on a smaller scale.

Vinyl on the big rig with streaming to supplement is the perfect marriage for musical enjoyment imo

 

[PYP]

I wonder if anyone has recently, with top level streaming gear such as the Taiko Extreme or Wadax with a quality network set-up, gone deep into ultimate streaming, spent the time with it, and then backed away from it and did only discs? where the overall streaming equation was not strong enough to justify it's use as the main digital focus? this is who might shed some light on things.....

That perspective would be helpful to understanding streaming in comparison to discs. And hopefully it would be expressed in terms of musical enjoyment, not sound per se.

BTW, Qobuz has quite a few 24 bit resolution albums. While the 16 bit recordings can sound very good (depending on the recording engineer), the 24 bit is richer and readily apparent.

For those using Qobuz and who enjoy clarinet and acoustic guitar: Nitido E Obscure (Live) with Gabriele Mirabassi and Roberto Toufic (96/24; 2018). Does the equipment disappear along with time and concerns of the day?

 

[the sound of Tao]

Why would anyone expect, or even want, consensus? Especially on this forum.

I think this is the best rationalisation and summation of the reality of virtually every audio thread ever written.

The market is the consensus, streaming is now 90% of music consumption, CD and vinyl just the crumbs…

…And so the lack of consensus on What's BEST will continue. The consensus on What's CONVENIENT has already been formed. The market has spoken there.

Marc I’m not sure what dimension the UK rematerialised in post Brexit but server file based audio is by faaaaar the least CONVENIENT sound source to setup, to maintain and among the most challenging to optimise. It makes alchemy look like a science and is wracked with pain.

There is more art tied up in the optimisation of a turntable, but there is nothing convenient about operating and maintaining server based music systems and without extraordinary support in setup and operation it is an anxious minefield for those of us who are computer challenged unless you can happen to afford Taiko… and even then.

CD players are easily the most convenient music source. CD as source is what I setup for my parents who are in their late 80’s and like so many of us old enough to qualify as audiophiles and to be not at all tech savvy but more likely tech allergic.

CD players are soooo convenient and easy and simple to setup and to use… they are the exemplar of being CONVENIENT. They are also much less absorbing to learn how to use. Immediately and reassuringly familiar and I’d suggest far less complex or possible or in needing to optimise… unless you’re still using green marker pens on the edges of your CDs.

I'm still considering streaming, because I know over time I'm missing out on a lot of new music.

Getting into server and file based music systems aren’t at all about convenience… they are a trial by fire… they're a complete pita initially and then quite often from then on in… and just when you think you’ve got it sussed out the compuuuter says nooo… and I’m not sure how many server setups even then are really that well sorted out. For those who’ve undergone the waterboarding in the setup process it’s not about ease (and never about convenience) but about the challenge of getting an immediacy of access to much of the storehouse of music world wide and creating the kind of learning environment to connect to and discover music and exposure to learn more about what makes for the greatest music performance.

To get to a tipping point where the challenges of that electronic environment aren’t a constraint to musical engagement only comes with a lot of time, a lot of commitment and/or expenditure to get a system setup properly and managed and used at its best… and even then the computer gargoyles will eventually update you with the kind of surprise they like to give you down in Tartarus.

 

[sigbergaudio]

My streamer is my laptop, can you tell me why 24/192 tracks on Tidal stutter, whereas lower res stuff is fine?

I'm sorry, I do not. Do you have a very old laptop or a very slow internet conncetion?

 

[sigbergaudio]

Slight digression on the topic, but another thing I find somewhat interesting is that the same people who think we need very high res digital files, also typically think vinyl sounds better than digital. But vinyl technically has a lower bitrate than even CD, and also doesn't have a very wide frequency range.

So in theory neither bitrate beyond 16bit or frequency range beyond human hearing is important for good sound (since we achieve good sound with vinyl). So why do we suddenly need 192khz/24bit when we are in the digital domain?

 

[Republicoftexas69]

I am sorry I like what I hear and it is both vinyl and what I stream. Good night.

 

[Rexp]

I'm sorry, I do not. Do you have a very old laptop or a very slow internet conncetion?

Probably slow internet, why would that matter if the data was buffered prior to being sent to the DAC?

 

[sigbergaudio]

Probably slow internet, why would that matter if the data was buffered prior to being sent to the DAC?

The Tidal buffering solution apparently isn't good enough to handle that situation then. That doesn't mean this isn't possible to fix, and also it doesn't mean we need optical connection directly to the streaming servers to fix it.

The bandwidth demands of a 192/24 audio stream is significantly less than streaming Netflix on your TV. People who have that service does not typically suffer from their favorite TV shows stuttering.

 

[Rexp]

The Tidal buffering solution apparently isn't good enough to handle that situation then. That doesn't mean this isn't possible to fix, and also it doesn't mean we need optical connection directly to the streaming servers to fix it.

The bandwidth demands of a 192/24 audio stream is significantly less than streaming Netflix on your TV. People who have that service does not typically suffer from their favorite TV shows stuttering.

My Netflix never stutters on my laptop.

 

[sigbergaudio]

My Netflix never stutters on my laptop.

My point exactly.

 

[spiritofmusic]

I think this is the best rationalisation and summation of the reality of virtually every audio thread ever written.

Marc I’m not sure what dimension the UK rematerialised in post Brexit but server file based audio is by faaaaar the least CONVENIENT sound source to setup, to maintain and among the most challenging to optimise. It makes alchemy look like a science and is wracked with pain.

There is more art tied up in the optimisation of a turntable, but there is nothing convenient about operating and maintaining server based music systems and without extraordinary support in setup and operation it is an anxious minefield for those of us who are computer challenged unless you can happen to afford Taiko… and even then.

CD players are easily the most convenient music source. CD as source is what I setup for my parents who are in their late 80’s and like so many of us old enough to qualify as audiophiles and to be not at all tech savvy but more likely tech allergic.

CD players are soooo convenient and easy and simple to setup and to use… they are the exemplar of being CONVENIENT. They are also much less absorbing to learn how to use. Immediately and reassuringly familiar and I’d suggest far less complex or possible or in needing to optimise… unless you’re still using green marker pens on the edges of your CDs.

Getting into server and file based music systems aren’t at all about convenience… they are a trial by fire… they're a complete pita initially and then quite often from then on in… and just when you think you’ve got it sussed out the compuuuter says nooo… and I’m not sure how many server setups even then are really that well sorted out. For those who’ve undergone the waterboarding in the setup process it’s not about ease (and never about convenience) but about the challenge of getting an immediacy of access to much of the storehouse of music world wide and creating the kind of learning environment to connect to and discover music and exposure to learn more about what makes for the greatest music performance.

To get to a tipping point where the challenges of that electronic environment aren’t a constraint to musical engagement only comes with a lot of time, a lot of commitment and/or expenditure to get a system setup properly and managed and used at its best… and even then the computer gargoyles will eventually update you with the kind of surprise they like to give you down in Tartarus.

Graeme, good points. I think I just meant the "the universe of music at your fingertips" concept.

 

[Tangram]

Two of my favourite artists are Neil Young and Joni Mitchell. As polio survivors, they were very upset with Joe Rogan providing a platform for anti-vaxxers on his Spotify podcast, and now I can’t listen to their music using my preferred online streaming service. The artist/label/streaming company controls access to the art, not me.

Quietly sitting on a shelf in my basement are thirty or so Neil and Joni records that I own, not rent. Neil may decide he doesn’t like me or something I stand for, but he can’t stop me from playing his records. Nobody can. I like that.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Vinyl on the big rig with streaming to supplement is the perfect marriage for musical enjoyment imo

+1

 

[MarkusBarkus]

...I had to scroll back to the top of the page to revisit the title. For a moment, I thought I was on the "Old Guys Crabbing About Technology" thread. I'm surprised some of you guys are even reading online. Well done. Computer audio/streaming is really not difficult. How far you want to take it is a matter of choice, including not taking it at all.

For reference: I'll be 66 y.o. in a couple of months. But net-net, enjoy your music however you get it. Carry on.