More Consensus That Streaming Is An Inferior Format & Not High End?

[Another Johnson]

I am v much album, or at least album side oriented, as well. I was curious because the majority of claims I read from others about streaming is access to new music or discovering new music. I guessed that led to a fair amount of channel surfing. Sounds like maybe not in your case.

I use Roon with my dCS Rossini. Roon is a wonderful resource for suggesting artists and music similar to what you’re choosing on your own. If you turn on the Roon Radio feature, at the end of your album or playlist, it will keep cuing up one new track at a time.
I have been introduced to many new artists and albums by this feature. But it is not central to my enjoyment of streaming as an audiophile format. I also use HEOS, BluOS, and Mosaic with devices here. I subscribe to both Qobuz and Amazon Prime, and my wife is addicted to internet radio.

 

[hopkins]

No need to be sorry. We're talking to each other. That can be an end in itself.

I hear no one pretending that audiophilia is a precondition to anything, much less music appreciation. If you dislike or prefer not to describe what you hear from your system, well that's you. Okay?

Ok, I understand the idea, and I have done that at times (describing what I hear). I'm not sure it is really necessary to qualify audio equipment but it does not hurt.

 

[Bill Hart]

Cecil McBee – TIDAL

Thanks for that but unless I register for a "free" account I can't really see what they offer of his--I think he's done over 400 performances on records, some as a featured player, like Mutima and Alternative Spaces; others, like Milt Ward, involve him as a sideman. Are these all individual tracks? Would you mind telling me how many?
Thanks, Greg.

 

[Another Johnson]

The most frustrating thing about streaming for an audiophile is that you have only minimal control of what happens to the file before it gets to your gateway.
Qobuz, Tidal, Amazon, or whoever’s service you subscribe to sends it on demand. The World Wide Web has next crack at it. Then your isp, and finally it gets to your LAN.
Yes it’s all 1s and 0s … but packets can be delayed or lost, and the variability of delay (jitter) can grow to make packet delay equivalent to loss.
Before I pounded the table at my bricks and mortar ISP store, I had packet loss that varied from 0% to 30%, and jitter that varied from 10 ms all the way up to more than 500 ms. I could hear the variability without debate. One day streaming sounded superb. The next it was mediocre or worse.
After you get your isp sorted out (and they did fix issues on their side of my gateway at no extra cost to me), then you’ve got the issue of software/firmware compatibility between your subscription service, your control program, and your streamer.
Software is always being updated by one or another in your mix, and the others have to adapt to maintain quality. Throw Roon into the mix, and that’s a fourth player. All of these companies view audiophiles as a modest part of their market, with dCS Mosaic Control being a possible exception.
I was 100% in the camp that streaming was a lazy man’s compromise up until a few months ago when I added a Roon Nucleus (abandoning the Roon core Installed on my M1 iMac) and also added the Rossini Ring DAC. Neither can use WiFi. So you have to use a bridge or bring Ethernet to your system location. I tried both and found the hard connection all the way to sound best. I still stream to the ND8006 with WiFi using HEOS for control and Amazon Prime as the subscriber service. Amazon is not compatible with Roon.

Long story short … figuring out how to stream at an audiophile level is not for sissies. If you like it at your house with no special effort, good for you. At my house it has been a long time coming, very aggravating, and expensive. But I do like it, and more than 95% of the time these days, the quality is legitimately at an audiophile level here. If it’s not, I change to another source.

 

[Another Johnson]

One other thought. I have heard very few good streaming demos. By good I mean demos that I would consider audiophile level. But this is also true for vinyl demos. Most stores … even high end focused stores… are not ready for truly prime time. Even at shows, hastily set up modest rooms are not the best place to judge gear OR music.
When one guy insists that his favorite source is best for you, he believes what he’s saying, but there’s no external basis to support his belief.

 

[Another Johnson]

Last thought. As an audiophile, I have many vinyl and CD or SACD releases of favorite performances. As a streaming audiophile I often find files that have been recently remixed/remastered, and frequently they will include more tracks than were in the original.
Take Mingus Ah Um for example. There is a 24/192 version which is included unedited original cuts (don’t ask me why Columbia edited the originals), and it includes several additional tracks that were not on the original. I’ve listened to various releases of the vinyl and CD for decades. I was using it to evaluate streaming sound quality in comparison and serendipitously found this newer version on both Qobuz and Amazon. I like it, née prefer it.
A shortcoming of streaming is that it almost never includes the Original liner notes. But it nearly always includes a lot of other info about the artist and performance from sources on the web.
Streaming brings much good to exploration of music. And it can do it at an audiophile level if you’re lucky, or skilled enough to achieve it.

 

[Gregadd]

" it has been a long time coming, very aggravating, and expensive."
the audiophile mantra

 

[hopkins]

A shortcoming of streaming is that it almost never includes the Original liner notes. But it nearly always includes a lot of other info about the artist and performance from sources on the web.

Really? My experience is quite the opposite... there are no streaming services that offer decent credits for albums. To circumvent the problem, here is what I have done (note: the search bar is not operational on this web version) https://paulstephane.github.io/collection.html

By the way, the Internet Archive is a nice resource for liner notes (but far from complete ).

As far as "discovery" goes, the lack of credits makes things really difficult. I find I have to spend many hours looking for albums across various services, and very often end up purchasing CDs. I often start with Discogs, and then work my way back to other sources.

 

[Gregadd]

Thanks for that but unless I register for a "free" account I can't really see what they offer of his--I think he's done over 400 performances on records, some as a featured player, like Mutima and Alternative Spaces; others, like Milt Ward, involve him as a sideman. Are these all individual tracks? Would you mind telling me how many?
Thanks, Greg.

Bill I was making a plug for Tidal.
I assume Tidal does not offer a listing for side musician. Perhaps they should. For instance, consider all the jazz giants who were a part of Miles Davis bands. Or those who played in Duke Ellington's band.
Maybe you should contact customer service with that suggestion. It' amazing what computers can do.

 

[Another Johnson]

Really? My experience is quite the opposite... there are no streaming services that offer decent credits for albums. To circumvent the problem, here is what I have done (note: the search bar is not operational on this web version) https://paulstephane.github.io/collection.html

By the way, the Internet Archive is a nice resource for liner notes (but far from complete ).

As far as "discovery" goes, the lack of credits makes things really difficult. I find I have to spend many hours looking for albums across various services, and very often end up purchasing CDs. I often start with Discogs, and then work my way back to other sources.

Just as an example, take Coltrane’s original notes on A Love Supreme. These are a major part of Coltrane’s history. At least on Qobuz/Roon, they’re no where to be found.

As for credits, in my experience they are far more extensive on Roon than on any other source. But the world of music is large. Some performances are poorly credited. Even Roon can’t bring in unknown data.

 

[hopkins]

Just as an example, take Coltrane’s original notes on A Love Supreme. These are a major part of Coltrane’s history. At least on Qobuz/Roon, they’re no where to be found.

As for credits, in my experience they are far more extensive on Roon than on any other source. But the world of music is large. Some performances are poorly credited. Even Roon can’t bring in unknown data.

Coltrane's Love Supreme, Miles Davis' Kind of Blue, etc... They are just a drop in the ocean, but that's what everybody has on their "100 best jazz albums of all time", and that's why you find 500 re-issues of these albums, while so many more are out there still unavailable on CD or streaming... Such is life.

Don't get me started on Roon It is not that the data is "unknown" (check out Tom Lord's discography, for starters, but there are many more). It is just that Roon bases its data primarily on Rovi, and Rovi is a commercial site which has very poor quality data. Roon is fine for mainstream. I don't know any serious collector who uses Roon.

 

[Another Johnson]

Coltrane's Love Supreme, Miles Davis' Kind of Blue, etc... They are just a drop in the ocean, but that's what everybody has on their "100 best jazz albums of all time", and that's why you find 500 re-issues of these albums, while so many more are out there still unavailable on CD or streaming... Such is life.

Don't get me started on Roon It is not that the data is "unknown" (check out Tom Lord's discography, for starters, but there are many more). It is just that Roon bases its data primarily on Rovi, and Rovi is a commercial site which has very poor quality data. Roon is fine for mainstream. I don't know any serious collector who uses Roon.

There is neither time nor space to cover more than 100 examples. My example choice is from the top 100 because people are familiar with it. It is not unique. In fact, since it is in your so-called top 100, it is strange that it if incomplete.

Regarding the idea that you don’t know any serious collectors vehicle use Roon, it is a pity that your circle of friends is so small, and that your experience base so limited. This condescending, judgmental attitude that no one is as smart as the poster is typical of the AR OCD denizens of forums.
I’ll close the door on my way out.

 

[hopkins]

There is neither time nor space to cover more than 100 examples. My example choice is from the top 100 because people are familiar with it. It is not unique. In fact, since it is in your so-called top 100, it is strange that it if incomplete.

Regarding the idea that you don’t know any serious collectors vehicle use Roon, it is a pity that your circle of friends is so small, and that your experience base so limited. This condescending, judgmental attitude that no one is as smart as the poster is typical of the AR OCD denizens of forums.
I’ll close the door on my way out.

Who is being condescending ?

A lot of audiophile friends use Roon. l used Roon for a couple of years when it was launched. I am just stating the obvious, sorry if you don’t get it.

As far as Coltrane goes, yes I understand that it is only one example, and my comment was not directed towards you specifically. I will admit that I regret seeing so many "audiophile" reissues of the same albums and so many out there that remain unavailable. This comment was not even related to liner notes!

 

[NC Lee]

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[NC Lee]

it is a pity that your circle of friends is so small, and that your experience base so limited. This condescending, judgmental attitude that no one is as smart as the poster is typical of the AR OCD denizens of forums.
I’ll close the door on my way out.

Having a bad day?

 

[the sound of Tao]

I am v much album, or at least album side oriented, as well. I was curious because the majority of claims I read from others about streaming is access to new music or discovering new music. I guessed that led to a fair amount of channel surfing. Sounds like maybe not in your case.

I’d listen to maybe 3 or 4 whole albums a night (most nights) plus sometimes 1 or 2 albums a day when driving.

I’d add about 20 albums of new music a week to my library but I do spend a bit of time reading up on music reviews as well as surfing to preview new music. The other hour or two a day of my surfing is done at the ocean… I’m very lucky to live in waterworld… it’s nice

 

[Republicoftexas69]

Just as an example, take Coltrane’s original notes on A Love Supreme. These are a major part of Coltrane’s history. At least on Qobuz/Roon, they’re no where to be found.

As for credits, in my experience they are far more extensive on Roon than on any other source. But the world of music is large. Some performances are poorly credited. Even Roon can’t bring in unknown data.

I do not use Roon as it sounds awful compared to the Innuos Sense Application. But Roon is just an interface and the liner notes would be pulled from a source file provided from the original material (meta data?). For me I select an album and I listen, the artist and music has my undivided attention, no reading notes, books or doing emails or work. My streaming experience is very positive and I no longer buy CD's unless they are dirt cheap on Amazon and then they get ripped to my Statement server. I do still buy wax though.

Cheers and happy listening.

 

[R Johnson]

Known since long - "In the end I confused hardware aficionados and real music lovers. Most audiophiles, I was to learn, don’t “do” concerts. It’s part of the religion, but not part of the life." from "Are Audiophiles Music Lovers?" By Keith Yates

Thanks for the link to an interesting essay.
I attend 30+ Chicago Symphony concerts, about 10 operas and 8 piano recitals each year.
I have turned in my audiophile card.

 

[tima]

I’d listen to maybe 3 or 4 whole albums a night (most nights) plus sometimes 1 or 2 albums a day when driving.

Sometimes I find myself playing the same album, or parts of the same album multiple times. Recently listening to Beethoven later string quartets, genius deserves more than I can take in, in a single hearing.

 

[microstrip]

I am v much album, or at least album side oriented, as well. I was curious because the majority of claims I read from others about streaming is access to new music or discovering new music. I guessed that led to a fair amount of channel surfing. Sounds like maybe not in your case.

The fact that most people refer to "access to new music or discovering new music" does not mean anything for our audiophile debates - I feel sorry that some hard core audiophiles praising physical media (tape, vinyl or CD) try to use it as a weapon against streaming in a condescending way. CD also suffered from a similar effect - because it was click and pop free, some people pretended that audiophiles were embracing it just because of it, not because of its intrinsic sound quality aspects. The fact is that many audiophiles prefer the digital signature versus the typical noise and distortion signature of analog - the same way people prefer solid state versus tubes, for example.

Streaming can have both - convenience and high sound quality. What we prefer is personal taste and opinion.