Measuring power line noise with the TriField EM100, and the impressive effect of Shyunyata products

[ack]

First of all, thanks to @VLS for introducing me to to the TriField EM100
https://www.alphalabinc.com/product/plm/
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B083PZ7JR3/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

This tool measures line noise as mV peak-to-peak and the results are interesting, especially when compared to what's coming out of the Shunyata Denali 6000/S v2 outlets and associated power cords:

1) My dimmable 12V lights are feeding significant noise into the line
2) My microwave has extremely small impact
3) The electric oven has no impact
4) The Denali v2 is a super-star
5) The Shunyata Defender has no effect
6) The Shunyata Venom XC cords (non-noise reducing) still reduce noise further a little bit, by virtue of construction
7) The Shunyata Venom NR (noise-reducing) cords further reduce noise quite a bit
8) The Denali's CCI (component-to-component) isolation actually works as advertised: Feeding two DACs with NR cords from the same Denali outlet with a splitter ends up increasing the noise out of either cord as opposed to any other NR cord coming out of the Denali, so the DACs are feeding noise back into the line, picked up by the other

Here are the measurements:

Baseline, NO LIGHTS, nearby outlet:



Baseline, FIRST set of 12V dimmable lights ON, nearby outlet:


Baseline, SECOND set of 12V dimmable lights ON, nearby outlet:


Denali outlet, NO LIGHTS:


Denali outlet, FIRST set of 12V lights ON:

 

[ack]

Denali outlet, SECOND set of 12V lights ON:


Venom XC, NO LIGHTS:


Venom NR, NO LIGHTS:


Venom NR, NO LIGHTS, to one DAC, interference from the other DAC, off of same Denali outlet with splitter:

 

[ack]

It is no wonder I've been gobsmacked by the latest Shunyata products, which not only significantly reduce noise and do not impede instantaneous current delivery, they actually increase the latter (future thread)

 

[Mdp632]

It is no wonder I've been gobsmacked by the latest Shunyata products, which not only significantly reduce noise and do not impede instantaneous current delivery, they actually increase the latter (future thread)

Good stuff. Very interesting to read as it pertains to your system.

I suspect the QR/BB module in your Denali is to thank.

Look forward to reading this thread.

 

[AndrewChen]

do not impede instantaneous current delivery

How were you able to derive that instantaneous current delivery was not impeded?

 

[VLS]

How were you able to derive that instantaneous current delivery was not impeded?

I used this same device to measure noise, and a line tester to measure instantaneous current capacity (using the IDEAL INDUSTRIES INC. 61-164 SureTest Circuit Analyzer):

Location	Power Cord	Noise mVp-p	Peak amps (ASCC1)
Standard outlet (15 ft from breaker box)	Basic black cord	500	265
10 AWG dedicated line (15 ft from breaker box)	Basic black cord	200	487
As above	Shunyata Sigma XC + Denali v2 + Shunyata Sigma NR	50	668

As you can see, on a dedicated line the full Shunyata chain comes in at 668 amps and 50 mVp-p, compared to 487amps/200mVp-p using a basic power cord on the same line, and 265amps/500mVp-p using a basic PC in a standard outlet.

Bottom line, the Shunyata setup would seem to do what it claims: reduce noise while providing formidable current capacity.

 

[ack]

How were you able to derive that instantaneous current delivery was not impeded?

As I mentioned, stuff for a future thread, but VLS already spilled the beans. I'll have a few more analytical details later on

 

[adyc]

Do you have Ching Cheng power cord? Want to see how CC power cord fares.

 

[ack]

Do you have Ching Cheng power cord? Want to see how CC power cord fares.

I would not come close to this stuff

 

[Sammy T]

Take a count of all the wall warts & battery chargers, power supply's plugged to all your electrical outlets though out your house and garage. Light dimmers just being plugged in to your A/C outlets put out line noise, even if the light is not turn on. Mine are all plugged into AC switchable power strips .

 

[ack]

Take a count of all the wall warts & battery chargers, power supply's plugged to all your electrical outlets though out your house and garage. Light dimmers just being plugged in to your A/C outlets put out line noise, even if the light is not turn on. Mine are all plugged into AC switchable power strips .

BTW folks, Sammy T is responsible for some of my mods, like the Vishay diodes I use; thank you for being here!

 

[Mdp632]

Do you have Ching Cheng power cord? Want to see how CC power cord fares.

One man's distortion is another man's natural sound.

 

[BlueFox]

I absolutely love my last generation Shunyata gear (sig). Being retired, I am skipping the current Shunyata gear, and will go with the next generation.

 

[Kingrex]

I used this same device to measure noise, and a line tester to measure instantaneous current capacity (using the IDEAL INDUSTRIES INC. 61-164 SureTest Circuit Analyzer):

Location	Power Cord	Noise mVp-p	Peak amps (ASCC1)
Standard outlet (15 ft from breaker box)	Basic black cord	500	265
10 AWG dedicated line (15 ft from breaker box)	Basic black cord	200	487
As above	Shunyata Sigma XC + Denali v2 + Shunyata Sigma NR	50	668

As you can see, on a dedicated line the full Shunyata chain comes in at 668 amps and 50 mVp-p, compared to 487amps/200mVp-p using a basic power cord on the same line, and 265amps/500mVp-p using a basic PC in a standard outlet.

Bottom line, the Shunyata setup would seem to do what it claims: reduce noise while providing formidable current capacity.

This is a somewhat interesting device. I could use one in the field to troubleshoot.

What you are calling Noise mVp-p? I believe you are taking a millivolt measurement between the neutral and ground. I did not see the acronym in the manual. But it does say it takes a measurement of voltage between neutral and ground. I don't call microvolts between these two noise. I call it proper wiring. I have 0 mV between neutral and ground at my cord ends. They are on a 35 foot 10 awg run. I finished a job recently with about a 65 foot run and there too had 0 mv potential between the neutral and ground at the wall receptacle. I call this more a ground loop issue. It manifest itself as noise. But I don't believe it is noise per say.

Noise to me is a distorted sine wave or RF or DC on the AC power line.

The peak amps ASCC is derived by dividing the voltage by the impedance of the neutral and hot wire. If you take this measurement in a Denali receptacle, I'm not sure what you are measuring through. I don't know that it reads all the way back to the panel. Maybe it only reads 10 inches of wire???? I don't know, do you? I like a Denali. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with one. I'm only saying the result of the test might not be measuring all you think its measuring. Or put another way, giving you a true representation of the whole.

I know for sure a cheap dimmer will cause distortion of the sine wave. I have seen it on a scope. I also know replacing that dimmer with a $37 Lutron Maestro 1000 dimmer will get rid of the sine wave distortion and do it at the source. The harmonic never goes back into your overall power, negating the need for a filter at your audio rack. For that issue at least.

 

[VLS]

What you are calling Noise mVp-p?

The peak amps ASCC is derived by dividing the voltage by the impedance of the neutral and hot wire. If you take this measurement in a Denali receptacle, I'm not sure what you are measuring through. I don't know that it reads all the way back to the panel.

The TriField device only measures noise "in frequencies from 10kHz to 10MHz. 50Hz and 60Hz frequencies are ignored". The measurement is in "peak-to-peak mV.

You are correct that the SureTest device does not measure the ASCC (Available Short Circuit Current) directly - since that would involve a short circuit . Instead, it estimates it by measuring voltage drop under various loads, as well as line impedance seen at the point of the test. The voltage drop test obv. involves the whole current delivery system (combination of AC line and Denali).

The impedance test provides numbers for all the conductors. The impedance of the ground conductor gives an indication how well the setup can safely return any fault current and that needs to consider the whole system back to the breaker and it does involve putting current on the line: "Note that a small amount of current is applied to the ground conductor to accurately measure its impedance". When I tested a long line in the house the ASCC test tripped the breaker, so the test does involve the whole circuit.

 

[ack]

I know for sure a cheap dimmer will cause distortion of the sine wave. I have seen it on a scope. I also know replacing that dimmer with a $37 Lutron Maestro 1000 dimmer will get rid of the sine wave distortion and do it at the source

That's an interesting comment. Can you point to the exact model number? The dimming lights I used for testing use Lutron electronic dimmers but I don't know the model. Another line nearby uses the newer MACL-153MH-WH LED+ Lutron dimmer and a companion, and that caused no issues in my testing. Those problematic Lutron dimmers are really old by now, and it's not clear if it's them or the 12V transformers or both

 

[Kingrex]

That's an interesting comment. Can you point to the exact model number? The dimming lights I used for testing use Lutron electronic dimmers but I don't know the model. Another line nearby uses the newer MACL-153MH-WH LED+ Lutron dimmer and a companion, and that caused no issues in my testing. Those problematic Lutron dimmers are really old by now, and it's not clear if it's them or the 12V transformers or both

I was told by a Lutron rep the MA1000 has the most filtration of the Maestro line. I had bad issues with Xenon under counter lights making my SS amp transformers roar loud enough to be heard in the next room. Those dimmers shut down that issue. I have use an MA600 from Home Depot at my home on Juno MR16 12 volt cans. They seem to do a good job too. I have not had any issues with the companion or the PICO units either. I tried them all on various lights in my home.

I had to look up the Lutron literature on Magnet ballast dimmers. It seems the Maestro can dim magnetic ballast now. That is a different technology than electronic dimmers. If the Lutron is not working???? Maybe consider the fixture is near the end. Maybe also try a dimmer made specifically designed for magnetic ballast. Or a new Maestro. Especially if your going to keep the light and just change the ballast. Dimmers are not a one size fits all. Some work better with particular driver/bulb technology. Generally a poor match such as a slide dimmer with a LED can trim from Home Depot will result in the can trim starting to flicker after a year or so. Those slide dimmers for $27 also create a bunch of noise that makes SS toroid transformers mechanically hum very loud.

The point I am trying to make is I find point source filtration to be very effective and your leaving the audio power pure. Why filter your audio power if you don't have too. There is much that can be done to eliminate noise that is centered around proper infastrucre wiring and grounding. And filtration of devices at the source. Heat pumps and pool pumps can pull your power factor down. That is absolute lost energy. A Denali is not getting it back. But a bank of power factor correction capacitors in line with the pump loads will impact only that feeder to the motors and bring the phase angle back into position without damaging your audio power.

The Trifield meter, or Fluke 125B will tell you you have issues. But before you spend $14K on a Denali and power cord to feed it, did you consider having your electrical grounding optimized and looking at all the noise generators in your home first. That might end up being a $5k bill. And it might do a lot more than you think. Then try a Denali or other device. Consider this. A Denali will pretty much always change what you hear from your stereo. Improving your electrical infrastructure will pretty much always change what you hear from your Denali.

 

[Kingrex]

Here is another concept to consider. That Denali probably has a very good ground. Sunyata spent a lot of time optimizing it for premium performance. That ground is connected via a power cord to a wall plug. If that wall plug ground is not optimized , you end up negating a huge portion of the Denali's potential performance. And don't think a ground is a ground. There absolutely are right and wrong ways to ground for precision amplifying equipment. Wrong may still be code legal, but it introduces unwanted issues and it fails to perform its job well.

Same with power. Why let damaging to your electrical infrastructure issue go unresolved. What good does that do. Nothing. You want that TriField reading little to no noise at the receptacle at the wall. You want to NOT need a Denali. And without addressing these issues, the Denali can't even work as intended.

I might go so far to say its even more important you address the backbone of your electrical power before ever spending money on a conditioner. If you don't, its a cascade of mediocre performance throughout your audio power supply. You can't buy your way out of it with components. Not unless you have a battery based supply, and even those have a ground bond back to the main service.so you still loose.

 

[adyc]

Do you recommend to install additional ground rod in the garden? I read Bill Whitlock’s PowerPoint. It seems that he thinks it is unnecessarily.

 

[VLS]

Here is another concept to consider. That Denali probably has a very good ground. Sunyata spent a lot of time optimizing it for premium performance. That ground is connected via a power cord to a wall plug. If that wall plug ground is not optimized , you end up negating a huge portion of the Denali's potential performance. And don't think a ground is a ground. There absolutely are right and wrong ways to ground for precision amplifying equipment. Wrong may still be code legal, but it introduces unwanted issues and it fails to perform its job well.

Same with power. Why let damaging to your electrical infrastructure issue go unresolved. What good does that do. Nothing. You want that TriField reading little to no noise at the receptacle at the wall. You want to NOT need a Denali. And without addressing these issues, the Denali can't even work as intended.

I might go so far to say its even more important you address the backbone of your electrical power before ever spending money on a conditioner. If you don't, its a cascade of mediocre performance throughout your audio power supply. You can't buy your way out of it with components. Not unless you have a battery based supply, and even those have a ground bond back to the main service.so you still loose.

No question about the importance of a good ground, but I don't understand how even a perfect ground would protect against ambient RFI / EMI - and other appliances on the grid - inducing noise into the typically unshielded hot AC conductor.

I suspect the Denali would be needed to address that. Further, it purports to filter inter-component noise as well - again, something that I don't think a perfect ground can fix. But I may be missing something...