Me and my perception

[Vincent Kars]

Got some music in a M4A format containing Apple Lossless.
JRiver, MusicBee, WMP, none of my media players would play them.
Even dbPoweramp wasn’t able to convert them to FLAC (well it did but the content was static).
Obvious the files where corrupted.

Then I found a player (MusiCHI) able to convert them to high bit rate MP3.
As no audio is better than no audio at all, I decided to convert to MP3.
At least I could play them in JRiver.

Sometime later I got the same M4A, this time not corrupted.
Converted them to FLAC.

Could not resist comparing a couple of tracks with their MP3 equivalent.
Listened to the MP3 first, then the FLAC.
The difference was striking; the improved transparency offered by FLAC is obvious.
Far better inner detail, more life like.

I tried a second set.
Looking at my screen to select another set I saw the media player had sorted them by track and then by file type.
Obvious the first track was not the MP3 as I thought but the FLAC!

Lesson learned (for the 1000’th time): trust your ears but don’t trust your perception. It will let you hear what you believe.

 

[amirm]

. Run another test. Listen again. I suspect you will now hear them both sound the same. Now imagine they are not and try to hear the original difference. Likely you can do that too!

 

[Vincent Kars]

No problem.
That is why you should always do a sighted listening test otherwise you make those horrible errors of judgment like I did.

 

[amirm]

Here is the problem Vincent. The paranoia will never leave you alone! As I type this I am testing the auto EQ on an AVR we are evaluating. I must be checking 3 to 4 times every time I turn the darn thing on and off and think it did something good that I am actually in that mode!

 

[opus111]

Could not resist comparing a couple of tracks with their MP3 equivalent.
Listened to the MP3 first, then the FLAC.

The killer here is comparison - avoid it. Comparisons will always be subject to change blindness - in the blindness your perception will invent stuff.

See if you can do it with your eyes: http://www.cogsci.uci.edu/~ddhoff/cb.html

 

[FrantzM]

<snip>

peoples hearing is so variable they never want to admit it anyway....

Which makes me wonder of those 600 + hours claims of components break-in .. Is it the component really changing or our hearing becoming accustomed to its sound or our minds ..???
Our perceptions are flawed and cannot be relied on for accurate comparison, in the vast majority of cases... That much I know now.

 

[MylesBAstor]

Got some music in a M4A format containing Apple Lossless.
JRiver, MusicBee, WMP, none of my media players would play them.
Even dbPoweramp wasn’t able to convert them to FLAC (well it did but the content was static).
Obvious the files where corrupted.

Then I found a player (MusiCHI) able to convert them to high bit rate MP3.
As no audio is better than no audio at all, I decided to convert to MP3.
At least I could play them in JRiver.

Sometime later I got the same M4A, this time not corrupted.
Converted them to FLAC.

Could not resist comparing a couple of tracks with their MP3 equivalent.
Listened to the MP3 first, then the FLAC.
The difference was striking; the improved transparency offered by FLAC is obvious.
Far better inner detail, more life like.

I tried a second set.
Looking at my screen to select another set I saw the media player had sorted them by track and then by file type.
Obvious the first track was not the MP3 as I thought but the FLAC!

Lesson learned (for the 1000’th time): trust your ears but don’t trust your perception. It will let you hear what you believe.

Isn't the problem not having clarity in performing the test not perception?

What if you were given three choices (no diff, A or B?) vs two (A or B)? You just didn't consider the null possibility because it wasn't an option.

 

[flez007]

Haha - just to add some additional salt to the thread... i am listening a Schumann Generator device (yes...the 7.x Hz "magic box"). I feel ready for Prozac!

 

[Vincent Kars]

You just didn't consider the null possibility because it wasn't an option.

That is exactly where expectation bias is about.

 

[MylesBAstor]

That is exactly where expectation bias is about.

No I call it less than optimal methodology. Properly set up, no expectation bias.

 

[Raffles]

The killer here is comparison - avoid it. Comparisons will always be subject to change blindness

I don't think you need an actual physical comparison to run into this problem, merely a mental comparison of what you're listening to, against what you imagine the alternative would be like. Basically, you can't avoid bias without the most onerous precautions and almost all audio opinion is questionable and probably wrong - but fun nevertheless.

 

[Vincent Kars]

No I call it less than optimal methodology. Properly set up, no expectation bias.

If you mean when using the right experimental design, the expectation bias cannot have any impact on the outcome, I of course agree. That is where DBT, ABX, etc. is about.
However, my post was not about a formal test. It is about how unwittingly ones perception colors the observation.

 

[opus111]

Basically, you can't avoid bias without the most onerous precautions and almost all audio opinion is questionable and probably wrong - but fun nevertheless.

Speak for yourself, I do OK in avoiding bias personally without resorting to the onerous precautions - but then I don't rely on audio opinion, rather audio description.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Speak for yourself, I do OK in avoiding bias personally without resorting to the onerous precautions - but then I don't rely on audio opinion, rather audio description.

Everyone thinks they do, until they understand that they don't.

Tim

 

[microstrip]

Got some music in a M4A format containing Apple Lossless.
JRiver, MusicBee, WMP, none of my media players would play them.
Even dbPoweramp wasn’t able to convert them to FLAC (well it did but the content was static).
Obvious the files where corrupted.

Then I found a player (MusiCHI) able to convert them to high bit rate MP3.
As no audio is better than no audio at all, I decided to convert to MP3.
At least I could play them in JRiver.

Sometime later I got the same M4A, this time not corrupted.
Converted them to FLAC.

Could not resist comparing a couple of tracks with their MP3 equivalent.
Listened to the MP3 first, then the FLAC.
The difference was striking; the improved transparency offered by FLAC is obvious.
Far better inner detail, more life like.

I tried a second set.
Looking at my screen to select another set I saw the media player had sorted them by track and then by file type.
Obvious the first track was not the MP3 as I thought but the FLAC!

Lesson learned (for the 1000’th time): trust your ears but don’t trust your perception. It will let you hear what you believe.

Second lesson - do not extrapolate the results of the first lesson to all your activity. Because you were fooled one time in some particular conditions does not mean you and everyone else will be fooled every time.

 

[opus111]

Everyone thinks they do, until they understand that they don't.

'Everyone' here is just your opinion seeing as you haven't sampled a representative proportion of humanity I take it. Or have you? - in which case, do spill the beans.

 

[GaryProtein]

Which makes me wonder of those 600 + hours claims of components break-in .. Is it the component really changing or our hearing becoming accustomed to its sound or our minds ..???
Our perceptions are flawed and cannot be relied on for accurate comparison, in the vast majority of cases... That much I know now.

There is no doubt about it. The crucial part of a long "break-in" period is our hearing becoming accustomed to the way it sounds and what happens in our minds.

Mechanical components like woofers may take several hours (I mean less than 10) at moderately high volume to have the surrounds get used to flexing. Even at only 20 Hz, run for ONE hour, the woofer is going to flex 72,000 times in and out. How many cycles is required? Even if you say a MILLION cycles, that is still only 14 HOURS--no days, weeks, months for break-in.

Once a piece of electronic equipment is warmed up and the power supply is fully charged, say 15 minutes (or less) for solid state and 30-60 minutes (or less) for tubes, what you hear is what you've got. It isn't going to change.

For any valid comparison of speakers or electronics, you must be in the same room with identical set-ups, changing only the parts you are comparing. Everything else must remain constant. What you hear in one show vs another show is no means for comparison because everything is different. The emotional memory of ecstasy or disappointment while listening to a system often remains intact, but the audio memory is very flawed.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

'Everyone' here is just your opinion seeing as you haven't sampled a representative proportion of humanity I take it. Or have you? - in which case, do spill the beans.

Nah. No data, just casual observation. I have yet to meet, or hear of, anyone who has demonstrated immunity to bias, but I have met LOTS of people who desperately want to believe they are immune. It seems to be the nature of the beast (human/bias) to believe what you see/hear/touch/taste/smell and to deny that the senses are as fallible as they are consistently demonstrated to be in research. And the beast (human/denial) seems to work hardest where pride is involved. Audiophilia, wine, etc. If you've made a substantial investment in time, money and personal identity, based at least partially on a belief in your own experience and analytical abilities, you will work very hard not to believe that your sense of hearing/taste/sight etc. can easily be completely hijacked by suggestion.

But they can, it seems. Vincent's can. Mine can. It's a very safe bet that yours can.

Tim

 

[opus111]

Yeah I thought as much - you're tilting at windmills. I'm not by any means claiming infallibility of senses, or immunity from bias. Just that my bias is manageable without the 'onerous precautions'.

 

[amirm]

Yeah I thought as much - you're tilting at windmills. I'm not by any means claiming infallibility of senses, or immunity from bias. Just that my bias is manageable without the 'onerous precautions'.

What are those techniques to manage one's bias?