Maybe it's better not to know

[cjfrbw]

Sadurnis are excellent, seamless and unhonky. I heard quite a few of the touted horn systems at RMAF a few years ago, and Sadurnis were among my favorites. You have the room for them, too.

 

[spiritofmusic]

CJ, I'm in on/off contact w Jorge of Sadurnis, the main issue is that I'd have to travel to New Mexico (or is it Texas?) to audition them.

 

[Believe High Fidelity]

He is in Austin TX now. You might ask him about the baby version of the Staccatos (which I believe may or may not be designed to replace the Miracolis).

 

[RogerD]

Brad, it's interesting you say that about Nat.
If my Zus have a critical drawback, it's a certain gritty texture/greyness/lack of smoothness/opaqueness that holds them back from being truly uncoloured/neutral/transparent.
I'm sure that if Nats are not dead quiet as well, this contributes to a higher level of underlying noise.
Certainly I'm aware there is some veiling when listening to classical.

Hence I have been considering a very lower power high quality SS option like the Pass Labs XA25 stereo amp, or this plus a move to horns.
Looking at Sadurni or Haigner in the first instance, I'm wary of horns/woofers bass as in the Duos.

Marc, you talked about a friend with a self designed grounding system. I would try that, as what you describe will all go away. I have absolutely none of that and did in the past.

 

[ddk]

You didn’t get to visit another home of your AS2000. This one with Lars amplification. Another nice and kind gentleman with initial “T”. I guess we like tts.

View attachment 43257

Tang

Ooooooh, next trip!

david

 

[morricab]

Brad, it's interesting you say that about Nat.
If my Zus have a critical drawback, it's a certain gritty texture/greyness/lack of smoothness/opaqueness that holds them back from being truly uncoloured/neutral/transparent.
I'm sure that if Nats are not dead quiet as well, this contributes to a higher level of underlying noise.
Certainly I'm aware there is some veiling when listening to classical.

Hence I have been considering a very lower power high quality SS option like the Pass Labs XA25 stereo amp, or this plus a move to horns.
Looking at Sadurni or Haigner in the first instance, I'm wary of horns/woofers bass as in the Duos.

I have heard a lot of NATs and what you described with your ZUs is something I never heard from NAT.

Maybe it's just me but I would never endorse going to Pass from NAT...for me Pass has always failed to deliver anything that I am after in sound. NAT, on the other hand, is definitely heading the right direction. It would be a step back, IMO to go with Pass. That said I haven't heard a FirstWatt SIT amp.

We compared a low powered Pass (30.5) to a KR VA350 on Odeon 32s...KR was clearly better. NAT is quite competitive with KR.

Find a chance to try other high sensitivity speakers with your NATs and see if the issue persists...if not it was the speakers and not the NATs.

 

[morricab]

You didn’t get to visit another home of your AS2000. This one with Lars amplification. Another nice and kind gentleman with initial “T”. I guess we like tts.

View attachment 43257

Tang

At least this year in Munich, the LV setup with Lars amps was significantly inferior to the LV/Kondo setup. However, It was also the "cheap" version of the speakers (Palladian rather than Olympian).

 

[christoph]

Hello Marc

Sadurni is absolutely on my radar.
I had been following the Staccato for a while now, but certainly the Miracoli looks the business too.

You should definitely give the hORNS Universum a listen. There is even a dealer in the UK, not too far from you, in vast contrast to Sadurni

The Universums play very seamless with great cohesiveness in the bass region and absolutely no honking and are extremely transparent.

I absolutely adore them and every listening guest (so far more than 15 people) at the very least loved the Sound.
The aestethics you either love or hate, there is nothing in between but also in this respect, the vast majority loved the look of the Universums

 

[spiritofmusic]

Christoph, I'll freely admit that the few times I've heard the Universums I've really not liked them.

Granted these were at UK shows so I'm aware not to rely on these impressions.

Bass was the main issue for me, the Universum just didn't sound "grounded" to me, too wispy and lightweight.

I've also heard other horns w downfiring bass, the Animas, and again could not get on w them.

Also the price seems to have almost doubled in a few short years and they require biamping, meaning if I want to maintain consistency in my amps, my budget would have to stretch to £45-50k to cover another pr Nat SETs and these spkrs.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Brad, I was only extrapolating from what someone else said about Nat possibly being somewhat noisier than other tube amps.

Combine that with Zu drivers that are by definition less transparent than more expensive spkrs, and that COULD be the formula for grittiness.

The fact you refute that is great, I absolutely love what my Nats bring to my sound and would be very reluctant to swap out.

I have to say when I first auditioned Zu back in 2008, it was w Pass amps and I loved the sound so much I made the move from my old spkrs (ProAc Futures Two), so it would be fascinating to hear a Zu/Pass combination again. And the XA25 seems to press the right buttons for tube lovers, the reviews say all the right things.

No, I'm convinced I've literally run out of rope w the Zus. I've eeked out more and more w each upgrade and mod to my system, the neutral room acoustics and clean power to them, and highly expressive choice of amps, means that I'm hearing the Zus for what they are, and as good as they can be. And that on some genres they totally nail it (prog, fusion, electronica, rock, electric jazz); and on some they come up lacking (classical, pure acoustic, some jazz). And this is purely down to the Zu driver lacking that last bit of transparency, and some terseness in the upper mids/lower treble where the full range drivers push on all the way to 12kHz. This is the main drawback of the single driver concept, and I'm more aware of it than ever.

 

[christoph]

Hi Marc

Christoph, I'll freely admit that the few times I've heard the Universums I've really not liked them.

Granted these were at UK shows so I'm aware not to rely on these impressions.

Bass was the main issue for me, the Universum just didn't sound "grounded" to me, too wispy and lightweight.

I've also heard other horns w downfiring bass, the Animas, and again could not get on w them.

Also the price seems to have almost doubled in a few short years and they require biamping, meaning if I want to maintain consistency in my amps, my budget would have to stretch to £45-50k to cover another pr Nat SETs and these spkrs.

I don't want to convince you, just add my experience to some statements here...

When where these encounters?
In 2016 the Universums where vastly upgraded with all Beryillium Drivers and X-over improvements. Before they sounded promising but in 2016 they won me over.

With the new X-over, they don't neccessarily have to be bi-amped anymore. You get a external device where you can adjust the mid- and treble-horns relatively to the bass.
This gives you a lot of flexibility and range to adjust the bass to mid/treble balance to your liking/room needs.

Regarding the price hike, you get much better BE-Drivers and X-over than with the original early Universum.
And let's be honest, even at the current price, the Universum is the steal of the century compared to other brands, especially compared to Avantgarde you love so much.
I have heard a LOT Avantgards at dealers and Shows and I would again gladly take the Universums over Avantgards

 

[bonzo75]

I would too

 

[spiritofmusic]

Sure, I have no problem giving them another go. These horns, Sadurnis, Haigners, maybe some other left field contenders, will all take some travelling to and investigating, as will the time needed to build a budget.

In this time, the new Zu drivers and cabinets design/tech and materials approach will have made it to the flagship model due to be released in the next 2-3 years. And I'll also have checked out Maxonics field coils too.

For me, it's a case of trying to divine what I'm unhappy with, or what I feel could be better, and where to go w this.

Hell, I may even conclude that Apogees are for me, I certainly can't deny the positive impression of Duettas I got at Justin/User211.

 

[bonzo75]

Universum are much better in every way to the Sadurnis both Marty and I heard, and to the Haighner I heard in 3 systems. The Haighner systems had more expensive electronics look Kondo etc.

 

[spiritofmusic]

And the Animas?
And to radical alternatives like the Duettas?
I am aware both Shakti and Christoph have moved to the Universum from Zingali and Apogee.
Ked, are the Universums well set up at the UK dealer? Will I get a good impression of them?
I really don't want to waste my time and petrol if it's going to be another Animas anti climax type demo.

 

[bonzo75]

Anima, universums, trios, duettas, all sound extremely different to each other. Of these, duettas are not a final speaker, their bigger brothers are. Duos to me just don't fit in this category.

I have heard the universum often at Malvern audio...i would take them if I could afford them, as would I the Anima. I am just not willing to pay up. Universum are more like stats, good details and decay and large stage, with more bass and slam than stats.

Both Anima and Universum could have issues in flats due to downward firing woofers, but those are not relevant to you..

Whether you like them I reality cannot say, since you like duos...

Christoph hasn't "moved" from the apogee... He would have both if he could... with his move he is not rating one over the other

 

[christoph]

Hi Marc

I haven't moved from Apogee

I "only" sold one pair of Scintillas but I still own and love the Apogee Studio Grand and the Apogee Centaur Major

Btw. I also still own a pair of Odeon No 38/2 horns

For me it is horns "AND" planars, not "OR"

 

[morricab]

Hello Marc



You should definitely give the hORNS Universum a listen. There is even a dealer in the UK, not too far from you, in vast contrast to Sadurni

The Universums play very seamless with great cohesiveness in the bass region and absolutely no honking and are extremely transparent.

I absolutely adore them and every listening guest (so far more than 15 people) at the very least loved the Sound.
The aestethics you either love or hate, there is nothing in between but also in this respect, the vast majority loved the look of the Universums

Agreed, Universums are pretty far good and so are Odeon No.33 or 38.

 

[morricab]

Agreed, Universums are pretty far good and so are Odeon No.33 or 38.

Stupid auto type I meant pretty darn good.

 

[morricab]

Christoph, I'll freely admit that the few times I've heard the Universums I've really not liked them.

Granted these were at UK shows so I'm aware not to rely on these impressions.

Bass was the main issue for me, the Universum just didn't sound "grounded" to me, too wispy and lightweight.

I've also heard other horns w downfiring bass, the Animas, and again could not get on w them.

Also the price seems to have almost doubled in a few short years and they require biamping, meaning if I want to maintain consistency in my amps, my budget would have to stretch to £45-50k to cover another pr Nat SETs and these spkrs.

They don't need biamping.