Magico introduced the Q series subwoofers
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I am with Blazar on this. Nothing against Magico, I am fan after all
For the cash outlay these Q woofers represent, one can do better with more subs.. There are some excellent commercial subs out there ... A quatuor (4) of JL Fathom 212 is about the price of one of the Q15, the law of physics are in favor of more subs'l I will concede that the DIY route is not for every one but it can/will lead to superior results.
This is a fact: while there are chances that one (1) sub can/will improve things, the odds of this being optimal are very small. One usually needs more than 2 subs for smooth in-room bass response.. So far we, audiophiles are adverse to that notion... of multiple subs but things are changing.
Funny I was also thinking about concrete enclosure as well... I know that my subs will be either DIY or likely HIDFY (Have It Done For You) or Mark Seaton's Submersives, they won't be concrete
Welcome Blazar!
Frantz,
I would not answer to this post if it was not for the reference to the laws of physics. If you do not use the the still not completely formulated laws of of psychoacoustics there are so many variables in real rooms and systems that the laws of physics are not enough to produce SOTA bass reproduction. IMHO perhaps quantity, but not quality.
And I really do not see audiophiles changing! Are they ashamed of telling us?
Frantz,
I would not answer to this post if it was not for the reference to the laws of physics. If you do not use the the still not completely formulated laws of of psychoacoustics there are so many variables in real rooms and systems that the laws of physics are not enough to produce SOTA bass reproduction. IMHO perhaps quantity, but not quality.
And I really do not see audiophiles changing! Are they ashamed of telling us?
Bass remains bass and needs displacement .. How do you obtain great bass or sound if not obeying to the law of Physics microstrip?
Psychoacoustics or not you need to move air to suggest bass. You need excursion (to which I referred mistakenly as "extension") , lot of it No way this lone driver can match the output (in SPL) of the horns .
Well, any one knows that one driver displaces more air than one driver. The real question is knowing if this extra displacement is really needed for great bass reproduction in audiophile systems, or if it is used mainly for fireworks emulation, irritate you neighbors or the 0.1% of the time you listen to pipe organ with a few friends.
BTW, I though you referring to some more advanced laws of physics, not just air displacement.
This extra displacement (which translate in lower distortion) seems to be needed in the opinion of luminaries you seem to respect such as Dave Wilson who uses rather large woofers and a couple of them same in his audiophile statement subwoofer the Thor Hammer (I doubt those are only for HT, don't you think?)... The same thing is done by the persons who designed the Evo Acoustic MM7, The Tidal speakers such as the La Assoluta, Albert Von Scwikert with the VR11, Andy Payor with the Rockport Arrakis, Carl Mashiotto with the Nola Grand Reference VI Gold and Garl L. Koh with the Genesis Dragon with 12 drivers per side .. Apparently these people design speakers mainly for fireworks emulation, irritate their neighbors or the 0.1% of the time you listen to pipe organ with a few friends.
You are mixing apples with oranges IMHO. You are describing SOTA great systems where the bass is integrated from start with the main speaker. These systems have an intrinsic exceptional quality, and IMHO the woofer sections was designed to match the speakers using surely pshycoacoustics knowledge and will be used in a few expensive and exceptional systems. Their great bass is not only due to the "extra displacement", but will show at low levels due to the fantastic work of their designers. I suggest you read Andy Payor interview about bass in active speakers published in TAS some time ago or Dave Wilson about this subject.
My humorous reference (sorry if you did not like it) addressed the people who just add bass using simple physics with oversimplified concepts. And yes, I disagree with your comment:
microstrip
I am not mixing Apple and Oranges:
I have shown you that the great speakers around subscribe to this notion. More Drivers = Less Excursion = Lower distortion This is physics and they have no way of escaping to it. In the bass More drivers = Less excursion = Less distortion, for a given output. Facts Not opinion. Facts grounded in Physics.Thus the approach of using a lot of drivers in their most expensive (and in the opinion of their designers) best products.
Bass integration is a matter of physics. There is no other way around it. The simple mention of "psychoacoustics" doesn't/won't change this fact. Some here have achieved superb results mating subwoofers (making sure that the displacement is adequate) with main from different manufacturers. To be back on track and address the Q subwoofers, again, for the price of any one of the Qs, one can buy several stellar subwoofers and provide better results even within the realm of a Magico products. The Magicos are great for sure but pair of a Q7 mated with a pair of Q15 will not surpass a pair of Q7 with 4 JL Audio Audio Gotham G213... If one goes further and put more subwoofers within the living room the results will be better in most cases.if one goes the extraordinary route taken by Stereo, that of having several Helmhotz resonators in their room it may not be necessary to distribute the subs within the room. Still in the same room, 4 Gotham will surpass 2 Q15 or even 2 Q18... More displacement = Lower excursion = Lower distortion. Integrating that many subwoofers is not an easy task and not a plug and play thing, it is however doable and has been achieved by several here sometimes with the help of a professional. Those are facts, not opinions.
I am not mixing Apple and Oranges:
I have shown you that the great speakers around subscribe to this notion. More Drivers = Less Excursion = Lower distortion This is physics and they have no way of escaping to it. In the bass More drivers = Less excursion = Less distortion, for a given output. Facts Not opinion. Facts grounded in Physics.Thus the approach of using a lot of drivers in their most expensive (and in the opinion of their designers) best products.
Bass integration is a matter of physics. There is no other way around it. The simple mention of "psychoacoustics" doesn't/won't change this fact. Some here have achieved superb results mating subwoofers (making sure that the displacement is adequate) with main from different manufacturers. To be back on track and address the Q subwoofers, again, for the price of any one of the Qs, one can buy several stellar subwoofers and provide better results even within the realm of a Magico products. The Magicos are great for sure but pair of a Q7 mated with a pair of Q15 will not surpass a pair of Q7 with 4 JL Audio Audio Gotham G213... If one goes further and put more subwoofers within the living room the results will be better in most cases.if one goes the extraordinary route taken by Stereo, that of having several Helmhotz resonators in their room it may not be necessary to distribute the subs within the room. Still in the same room, 4 Gotham will surpass 2 Q15 or even 2 Q18... More displacement = Lower excursion = Lower distortion. Integrating that many subwoofers is not an easy task and not a plug and play thing, it is however doable and has been achieved by several here sometimes with the help of a professional. Those are facts, not opinions.
Frantz,
Again apple and oranges . You are now adding distributed bass sources, something very different from simply more displacement, and the most important factor in their designs. And the only fact you supply (Stereo system) does not illustrate your case. Some people love the word facts, but never co-substantiate them. Still waiting for the several.
I hope that Magico engineers are reading this page - they will learn that 4 Gotham will surpass 2 Q18 in a Magico stereo system in sound quality.
Last shot at this... You keep putting words in my mouth (my keyboard ) ... For the same price one can get better performance using multiple (not distributed, in stereo stacks/pairs subwoofers .. Stick them (subs) where you would have put the 2 Q subs ..Don't distribute them (although the preferred solution, see what VS is doing now with the VR-100XS, others will surely follow suit) . I am not referring to Stereo's (the person) system either.
One more thing: there is no Magic in subwoofers integration. Only Physics.
My point is contrary to yours on the matter. Let's keep at that but do not distort my words.
) ... For the same price one can get better performance using multiple (not distributed, in stereo stacks/pairs subwoofers .. Stick them (subs) where you would have put the 2 Q subs ..Don't distribute them (although the preferred solution, see what VS is doing now with the VR-100XS, others will surely follow suit) . I am not referring to Stereo's (the person) system either. One more thing: there is no Magic in subwoofers integration. Only Physics.
My point is contrary to yours on the matter. Let's keep at that but do not distort my words.
Last shot at this... You keep putting words in my mouth (my keyboard
One more thing: there is no Magic in subwoofers integration. Only Physics.
My point is contrary to yours on the matter. Let's keep at that but do not distort my words.
I read this quite a bit, and intuitively I get it...but just to make sure:
Is it accepted science that 4 'decent quality' 15" subs well placed are going to have better in-room bass response than 2 exceptional all-out QSubs (apparently with super-duper crossover flexibility, super-low distortion, incredibly excessive high-power tolerances (ie, 120db, 1% distortion, etc, etc)?
If so, is this because the science says that placement is far and away the most critical element of low-distortion bass...so having 4 subs in the right placement beats 2 well-placed subs that otherwise have superior crossover and innate distortion and power characteristics?
I am simply asking as a non-techie who is also a bass freak and therefore most curious to understand. I have read only a little of Geddes, etc...
Last edited:
Last shot at this... You keep putting words in my mouth (my keyboard
One more thing: there is no Magic in subwoofers integration. Only Physics.
My point is contrary to yours on the matter. Let's keep at that but do not distort my words.
No one is distorting your words - just making conclusions from your brave and generic statements. Your remark that subwoofer integration is only Physics is as meaningful as someone telling us it is also chemistry because of the chemical formula of the speaker cone. The Physics of bass integration in a stereo system is too complex to be addressed by audio scientists or designers, with the exception of a few experts in Physics simulation who will not loose their time with it. It is a partially closed non rigid boundary problem, involving air velocity and pressure. Multiple subs will interact through mutual coupling, making it very complex. Unless you reduce the complexity of the problem, using just the famous psychoacoustics knowledge to reduce significantly the number of variables the problem is non solvable using the scientific tools of Physics.
I love when you write "Last post at this ...", meaning you do not have real facts to document your opinions in our disagreements. Fortunately you go on posting ...
All right, fellas...let me as the question this way:
all things being equal (ie, a reasonably skilled audiophile and audio installer with a few hours or a day for integration),
are they GENERALLY going to have an easier time getting great bass integration with 2 QSubs (ie, 2 awesome subs, assuming the QSub really is awesome)...or 4-5 decent subs?
I understand the theoretical concept that more subs might make for more even bass distribution (and each sub being played at lower volumes means less distortion from high volume), but I equally have to wonder:
- would the superiority of the bass transient response, crossover electronics, low distortion etc of the super-subs more than make up for the additional subs
- would the complexity of the multiple subs for the 'average installer/audiophile' prove to be so complex that it might inadvertently create more problems than solutions?
I appreciate the question is partly answered by "well, how good is your installer?" but I am trying to get some basic guidance here...as in 'if you're guy aint a serious pro at this don't bother...or its 8 out of 10 installer ought to be able to figure this one out..."
I am inclined to think it is the former, as I do not know any installer (in a pretty big city of 11M people) who have done 5 sub installations for audiophiles. And I suspect if I asked, I am not sure that many would be super confident they could do it dramatically better than setting up dual subs really well.
all things being equal (ie, a reasonably skilled audiophile and audio installer with a few hours or a day for integration),
are they GENERALLY going to have an easier time getting great bass integration with 2 QSubs (ie, 2 awesome subs, assuming the QSub really is awesome)...or 4-5 decent subs?
I understand the theoretical concept that more subs might make for more even bass distribution (and each sub being played at lower volumes means less distortion from high volume), but I equally have to wonder:
- would the superiority of the bass transient response, crossover electronics, low distortion etc of the super-subs more than make up for the additional subs
- would the complexity of the multiple subs for the 'average installer/audiophile' prove to be so complex that it might inadvertently create more problems than solutions?
I appreciate the question is partly answered by "well, how good is your installer?" but I am trying to get some basic guidance here...as in 'if you're guy aint a serious pro at this don't bother...or its 8 out of 10 installer ought to be able to figure this one out..."
I am inclined to think it is the former, as I do not know any installer (in a pretty big city of 11M people) who have done 5 sub installations for audiophiles. And I suspect if I asked, I am not sure that many would be super confident they could do it dramatically better than setting up dual subs really well.
LLoyd,
Why do you think Fermi did not ask ""How many subwooofer tuners are there in Chicago?" in his famous problem?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_problem
LLoyd,
Why do you think Fermi did not ask ""How many subwooofer tuners are there in Chicago?" in his famous problem?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_problem
...and there you go!
!
LL21
Not my points at all. Never said that placing any subs in given position will provide great bass. I claim that for the price of ONE Qsub, one can achieve better results with more different subs at lower price, e.g the JL Audio Gotham the G213 which has some exceptional numbers as well. For the price of one Q 15 you are approaching the price of pair of Gotham ($12,000 could be a tad more) ... with the price of 2 Q15 ... 4 Gotham ... with the price of 2 Q-18 (35,000 I think )you can get 6 Gotham !!!
Stack them if you will. Two stack with each 3 (!!!) Gotham on each side at the same position you would have placed the Q. I claimwith such (absurd) combo one would get electronics-like THD and >120 Db 20 Hz at the listening position ... The Gotham is no slouch concerning crossover or amplification please look at the JL Audio web site to have an idea..
INtegrating different make of subwoofers with main of great distinction from different manufacturers is not easy but is done with stellar results. Ask some from this very WBF among them our very own Steve Williams about his experience with the Gotham and currently with the smaller Fathom. His system is not lacking ... believe me !!
As for multiple subwoofers placed within the room, I would recommend these articles. You can draw your very own conclusions.
http://www.harman.com/EN-US/OurCompany/Innovation/Documents/White Papers/multsubs.pdf
https://mehlau.net/audio/multisub_geddes/
This is a video from Dr Geddes himself
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCWL-zusyqw
Last shot at this... You keep putting words in my mouth (my keyboard
One more thing: there is no Magic in subwoofers integration. Only Physics.
My point is contrary to yours on the matter. Let's keep at that but do not distort my words.
Hi
Have you heard any q sub ever ?
Espen
the argument discussed on previous posts is a difficult one... both side have some merits:
- Frantz has a point that the more drivers you put in a room, the better bass response will be (assuming you don't go the extreme route of extensive room treatment like I did). The problem is that this is true "all other parameters being equal", and that is where Frantz is making a shortcut.
If you replace a top notch driver with perfect pistonic behavior and super stiff enclosure like the Qsub with an inferior design like the Gotham or other JL subs, you just cannot expect to get the same level of definition in the bass (don't get me wrong, I own two Fathom 113, there are great products but far from the quality of a Qsub... talking about experience). Driver excursion is only one parameter - different drivers will have very different level of distortion, different oscillation behavior for the same excursion. Different design of enclosure will generate different level of smearing of sound, etc
You can go the DIY route and build a giant sub with concrete enclosure, I have seen it done with great results (but also with poor one....). But I don't think you can really compare it with any commercial solution... you need a lot of DIY work and an excellent EQ to integrate them properly.
Now the real question should be: are you better off with 4 Qsub15 rather than 2 or 1? of course the answer is yes.
Would you be better off with 4 Fathom than one Qsub? i don't think so. As I said, I tried the Q1 with 2 F113. They don't integrate well, because the Fathom sub design is not at the level of the quality of the Q1, and you can hear it- it is a sub for Home theater, not for the ultimate stereo system. I heard a Q3 with a single Qsub, this was sounding great.... but probably not as good as with 2 Qsub. Do you really need the 1-3 extra subs, it depends of the size of your room, and the frequency response you get with a single one... (more subs equalize the response if properly placed).
- Frantz has a point that the more drivers you put in a room, the better bass response will be (assuming you don't go the extreme route of extensive room treatment like I did). The problem is that this is true "all other parameters being equal", and that is where Frantz is making a shortcut.
If you replace a top notch driver with perfect pistonic behavior and super stiff enclosure like the Qsub with an inferior design like the Gotham or other JL subs, you just cannot expect to get the same level of definition in the bass (don't get me wrong, I own two Fathom 113, there are great products but far from the quality of a Qsub... talking about experience). Driver excursion is only one parameter - different drivers will have very different level of distortion, different oscillation behavior for the same excursion. Different design of enclosure will generate different level of smearing of sound, etc
You can go the DIY route and build a giant sub with concrete enclosure, I have seen it done with great results (but also with poor one....). But I don't think you can really compare it with any commercial solution... you need a lot of DIY work and an excellent EQ to integrate them properly.
Now the real question should be: are you better off with 4 Qsub15 rather than 2 or 1? of course the answer is yes.
Would you be better off with 4 Fathom than one Qsub? i don't think so. As I said, I tried the Q1 with 2 F113. They don't integrate well, because the Fathom sub design is not at the level of the quality of the Q1, and you can hear it- it is a sub for Home theater, not for the ultimate stereo system. I heard a Q3 with a single Qsub, this was sounding great.... but probably not as good as with 2 Qsub. Do you really need the 1-3 extra subs, it depends of the size of your room, and the frequency response you get with a single one... (more subs equalize the response if properly placed).
I agree. I tried two JL F110s with my Magico Mini 2. As with your Q1, they did not integrate well. My professional set up guy also spent a day trying to integrate them. It just did not work in my room/system and detracted from the overall clarity and smoothness of the Mini2, so I sold the subs and accept the restricted LF of my system.
The assumption that seems to be made in this argument is that X number of JL subs are better than one Qsub for the same or less money. A similar argument can be made for speakers eg. a lower quality multi driver speaker (pick one of many floor standing speakers) will give you better results than a Magico Q1 and even cost less. I made this choice between the Magico V3 and Mini 2 and chose the latter for sound quality over extension. The argument can also be made with multiple amps driving a pair of speakers. Will bi-amping (or bi-wiring) a three way speaker sound better with four lower quality amps or with two better quality amps. Those looking for ultimate quality will buy the better solution regardless of cost which in this case is two or more Qsubs.
Stereo
Thanks for the constructive answer. Let me try to address some of your poin
Assuming a standard stereo configuration: Two bass towers/stack/individual subs flanking the mains. My points:
JL Audio knows a thing or two about subwoofers. The Gotham is really well made and doesn't vibrate when playing loud. Let's not condescend it and call it an "inferior" design ... Just for comparison stakes it weighs 367 lbs .. That is a very solidly made enclosure and with serious electronics.. The lower price should not infer a lower performance. This sub is the real deal ... and so are others less expensive examples, the Paradigm comes to mind ... at about $10K. The multiplicity of drivers keep said drivers in their linear /pistonic range to reepat for the hundredth time
. Moreover the relative level of each driver can also minimize the eventual lack of stifness of some enclosure if it was the case .. I want someone to prove to me that the Gotham is not as stiff as anything out there ...I have no doubt that the Q enclosures are stiff ... So is that of the Gotham. Which one is stiffer? I don't know and the weight or material of which any of those are made doesn't tell the story. Measurements might but we have no access to these , still at 367 lbs a Gotham is not a flimsy thing...
Now the thorny issue of Integration.
Much has been made of integrating subwoofers and frankly it is not for the faint of heart. It takes time and work, lot of work but it can be done and there is no magic to it. Many find it more comfortable to use subwoofers from the same manufacturers . It they find the choice to their liking by all means do enjoy it. I will continue to say that there are out there some subwoofers from manufacturers as diverse as JL Audio, Paradigm, Seaton Sound among many that would challenge or reverse that notion at a lower cost, in some cases sane person-type lower cost. Some speaker designs to not lend themselves well to integration. In my personal experience mini monitors rarely integrate with subs, I would venture to say that the Magico Mini II would not integrate well either with the Qs.... The paradox is that so-called "Full-Range" speakers are the best candidates for sub-woofing, assuming we are talking about sub-woofers not extended range separate woofers.
Finally the issue of distributed sub-woofers: Audiophiles are not warm to the notion and that is fine. At least do know that two subs are always better than one and 3 or more even better see the papers I mentioned.
Another point: Anyone has ever tried to listen to a sub working alone? Turn off the mains and let us know.
Finally I believe in discussions. I am passionate about my Audio and have been in the hobby for along while. I have challenged my own positions and they have changed. I want honest discussions not sneering and ad hominem. We learn much more from dissent than accolades.
Against Stereo thanks for your post. Refreshing and am looking forward to hear your system.
@Peter..
Please re-read my post about what multiple drivers in the Low Bass Region bring to the table. We are not assuming distibuted subs , simply more drivers .
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