I am with Blazar on this. Nothing against Magico, I am fan after all
For the cash outlay these Q woofers represent, one can do better with more subs.. There are some excellent commercial subs out there ... A quatuor (4) of JL Fathom 212 is about the price of one of the Q15, the law of physics are in favor of more subs'l I will concede that the DIY route is not for every one but it can/will lead to superior results.
This is a fact: while there are chances that one (1) sub can/will improve things, the odds of this being optimal are very small. One usually needs more than 2 subs for smooth in-room bass response.. So far we, audiophiles are adverse to that notion... of multiple subs but things are changing.
Funny I was also thinking about concrete enclosure as well... I know that my subs will be either DIY or likely HIDFY (Have It Done For You) or Mark Seaton's Submersives, they won't be concrete
Welcome Blazar!
Frantz,
I would not answer to this post if it was not for the reference to the laws of physics. If you do not use the the still not completely formulated laws of of psychoacoustics there are so many variables in real rooms and systems that the laws of physics are not enough to produce SOTA bass reproduction. IMHO perhaps quantity, but not quality.
And I really do not see audiophiles changing! Are they ashamed of telling us?
Bass remains bass and needs displacement .. How do you obtain great bass or sound if not obeying to the law of Physics microstrip?
Psychoacoustics or not you need to move air to suggest bass. You need excursion (to which I referred mistakenly as "extension") , lot of it No way this lone driver can match the output (in SPL) of the horns .
Well, any one knows that one driver displaces more air than one driver. The real question is knowing if this extra displacement is really needed for great bass reproduction in audiophile systems, or if it is used mainly for fireworks emulation, irritate you neighbors or the 0.1% of the time you listen to pipe organ with a few friends.
BTW, I though you referring to some more advanced laws of physics, not just air displacement.
This extra displacement (which translate in lower distortion) seems to be needed in the opinion of luminaries you seem to respect such as Dave Wilson who uses rather large woofers and a couple of them same in his audiophile statement subwoofer the Thor Hammer (I doubt those are only for HT, don't you think?)... The same thing is done by the persons who designed the Evo Acoustic MM7, The Tidal speakers such as the La Assoluta, Albert Von Scwikert with the VR11, Andy Payor with the Rockport Arrakis, Carl Mashiotto with the Nola Grand Reference VI Gold and Garl L. Koh with the Genesis Dragon with 12 drivers per side .. Apparently these people design speakers mainly for fireworks emulation, irritate their neighbors or the 0.1% of the time you listen to pipe organ with a few friends.
(...)
For the cash outlay these Q woofers represent, one can do better with more subs.. There are some excellent commercial subs out there ... A quatuor (4) of JL Fathom 212 is about the price of one of the Q15, the law of physics are in favor of more subs'l I will concede that the DIY route is not for every one but it can/will lead to superior results.
(...)
microstrip
I am not mixing Apple and Oranges:
I have shown you that the great speakers around subscribe to this notion. More Drivers = Less Excursion = Lower distortion This is physics and they have no way of escaping to it. In the bass More drivers = Less excursion = Less distortion, for a given output. Facts Not opinion. Facts grounded in Physics.Thus the approach of using a lot of drivers in their most expensive (and in the opinion of their designers) best products.
Bass integration is a matter of physics. There is no other way around it. The simple mention of "psychoacoustics" doesn't/won't change this fact. Some here have achieved superb results mating subwoofers (making sure that the displacement is adequate) with main from different manufacturers. To be back on track and address the Q subwoofers, again, for the price of any one of the Qs, one can buy several stellar subwoofers and provide better results even within the realm of a Magico products. The Magicos are great for sure but pair of a Q7 mated with a pair of Q15 will not surpass a pair of Q7 with 4 JL Audio Audio Gotham G213... If one goes further and put more subwoofers within the living room the results will be better in most cases.if one goes the extraordinary route taken by Stereo, that of having several Helmhotz resonators in their room it may not be necessary to distribute the subs within the room. Still in the same room, 4 Gotham will surpass 2 Q15 or even 2 Q18... More displacement = Lower excursion = Lower distortion. Integrating that many subwoofers is not an easy task and not a plug and play thing, it is however doable and has been achieved by several here sometimes with the help of a professional. Those are facts, not opinions.
Last shot at this... You keep putting words in my mouth (my keyboard ) ... For the same price one can get better performance using multiple (not distributed, in stereo stacks/pairs subwoofers .. Stick them (subs) where you would have put the 2 Q subs ..Don't distribute them (although the preferred solution, see what VS is doing now with the VR-100XS, others will surely follow suit) . I am not referring to Stereo's (the person) system either.
One more thing: there is no Magic in subwoofers integration. Only Physics.
My point is contrary to yours on the matter. Let's keep at that but do not distort my words.
Last shot at this... You keep putting words in my mouth (my keyboard ) ... For the same price one can get better performance using multiple (not distributed, in stereo stacks/pairs subwoofers .. Stick them (subs) where you would have put the 2 Q subs ..Don't distribute them (although the preferred solution, see what VS is doing now with the VR-100XS, others will surely follow suit) . I am not referring to Stereo's (the person) system either.
One more thing: there is no Magic in subwoofers integration. Only Physics.
My point is contrary to yours on the matter. Let's keep at that but do not distort my words.
(...) as I do not know any installer (in a pretty big city of 11M people) who have done 5 sub installations for audiophiles. And I suspect if I asked, I am not sure that many would be super confident they could do it dramatically better than setting up dual subs really well.
LLoyd,
Why do you think Fermi did not ask ""How many subwooofer tuners are there in Chicago?" in his famous problem?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_problem
I read this quite a bit, and intuitively I get it...but just to make sure:
Is it accepted science that 4 'decent quality' 15" subs well placed are going to have better in-room bass response than 2 exceptional all-out QSubs (apparently with super-duper crossover flexibility, super-low distortion, incredibly excessive high-power tolerances (ie, 120db, 1% distortion, etc, etc)?
If so, is this because the science says that placement is far and away the most critical element of low-distortion bass...so having 4 subs in the right placement beats 2 well-placed subs that otherwise have superior crossover and innate distortion and power characteristics?
I am simply asking as a non-techie who is also a bass freak and therefore most curious to understand. I have read only a little of Geddes, etc...
Last shot at this... You keep putting words in my mouth (my keyboard ) ... For the same price one can get better performance using multiple (not distributed, in stereo stacks/pairs subwoofers .. Stick them (subs) where you would have put the 2 Q subs ..Don't distribute them (although the preferred solution, see what VS is doing now with the VR-100XS, others will surely follow suit) . I am not referring to Stereo's (the person) system either.
One more thing: there is no Magic in subwoofers integration. Only Physics.
My point is contrary to yours on the matter. Let's keep at that but do not distort my words.
As I said, I tried the Q1 with 2 F113. They don't integrate well, because the Fathom sub design is not at the level of the quality of the Q1, and you can hear it- it is a sub for Home theater, not for the ultimate stereo system.
the argument discussed on previous posts is a difficult one... both side have some merits:
- Frantz has a point that the more drivers you put in a room, the better bass response will be (assuming you don't go the extreme route of extensive room treatment like I did). The problem is that this is true "all other parameters being equal", and that is where Frantz is making a shortcut.
If you replace a top notch driver with perfect pistonic behavior and super stiff enclosure like the Qsub with an inferior design like the Gotham or other JL subs, you just cannot expect to get the same level of definition in the bass (don't get me wrong, I own two Fathom 113, there are great products but far from the quality of a Qsub... talking about experience). Driver excursion is only one parameter - different drivers will have very different level of distortion, different oscillation behavior for the same excursion. Different design of enclosure will generate different level of smearing of sound, etc
You can go the DIY route and build a giant sub with concrete enclosure, I have seen it done with great results (but also with poor one....). But I don't think you can really compare it with any commercial solution... you need a lot of DIY work and an excellent EQ to integrate them properly.
Now the real question should be: are you better off with 4 Qsub15 rather than 2 or 1? of course the answer is yes.
Would you be better off with 4 Fathom than one Qsub? i don't think so. As I said, I tried the Q1 with 2 F113. They don't integrate well, because the Fathom sub design is not at the level of the quality of the Q1, and you can hear it- it is a sub for Home theater, not for the ultimate stereo system. I heard a Q3 with a single Qsub, this was sounding great.... but probably not as good as with 2 Qsub. Do you really need the 1-3 extra subs, it depends of the size of your room, and the frequency response you get with a single one... (more subs equalize the response if properly placed).
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