LP with better dynamic range than digital

[BruceD]

Ed Zaccary and that is the point...most label digital releases of older analog mastered material sucks in comparo to vinyl. If new digitally mastered music is your thing, there is no need for a turntable or tape deck.

Eloquently put-- that seems to be the crux --Digital output is certainly exceedingly good-for general listening

For involvement and allowing you into the performance,purveying the nuances /emotion when one wants to immerse fully--the LP is still the leader

BruceD

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Do you make your digital recordings of LP with the rest of the system playing through the speakers as you record or do you record the LP with the speakers silent?

the 2xdsd rips are done monitoring with headphones in a vinyl front end almost identical to mine. same tt, same arm other than my arm is a special version of that same arm, same preamp/phono stage, same cartridge, no Herzan. I have this exact same (stock version) tonearm in my system as the 2nd arm on my tt.

if it was done in my system I use the Herzan TS-140 active isolation platform under my tt and the Herzan TS-150 under my darTZeel preamp/phono stage. so speaker monitoring would not audibly effect the rips. in the past I've compared rips done in my system with the Herzan and speakers 'live' and through headphone monitoring and they are sonically identical. I can simply turn off the Herzans in my system to eliminate than variable. the delta between the rips and the live vinyl in my system are easily beyond that subtle difference.

 

[Robh3606]

Hello Mike

Did you manage to find the Telarc 1812??

Hello Tomlex

I wouldn't underestimate how much information a stylus can get out of a grove. Remember CD-4 with carriers at 30K using what was it a shibata stylus profile?? Plus tbe other available profiles that came after that increased the contact area and reduced wear. What you actually see is one thing the working bit of the tip you need a microscope to see forget about any 5X loop

Rob

 

[Joe Whip]

Ed Zaccary and that is the point...most label digital releases of older analog mastered material sucks in comparo to vinyl. If new digitally mastered music is your thing, there is no need for a turntable or tape deck.

Couldn't disagree more. I have heard some incredible digital releases of older analog recordings which to my ears and in my system, sound better than the LP. There is some great digital out there.

 

[Atmasphere]

Well, if we want to allow for his idea of the sizes getting down to the micro inches as he says, then he is talking about levels that are far too small for a big old ball shaped needle to even notice, ie when we start getting down to micro inches as he is saying, we are now back to digital, that is, there are no smooth lines in that vinyl, there are pits an peaks and spikes, that that round needle ball "averages" and no, we aint gonna get that 120db that is "possible" there. no sir. we cant do it in playback. And we are ignoring all the tracking issues etc with that needle bouncing along the groove, creating its own sets of vibrations and hence LP is never the same song twice. Yeah, it sounds good, but it is not logical to implement, you could maybe say it is capable of that if you had a way to measure a point in time in a record looking at that valley bottom and peak, using some sort of laser or something, but not with a big old needle ball mowing these micro informations over etc and averaging them.

There is a fundamental misunderstanding of how analog playback is done in this paragraph! Take a look at this link, it might help:

http://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?t=22894

Its all about the contact point. The information in the groove is constant over a wide range of the groove wall due to the way the cutter stylus cuts the groove. In short, the resolution is considerably higher than you have imagined.

I wouldn't underestimate how much information a stylus can get out of a grove. Remember CD-4 with carriers at 30K using what was it a shibata stylus profile?? Plus tbe other available profiles that came after that increased the contact area and reduced wear. What you actually see is one thing the working bit of the tip you need a microscope to see forget about any 5X loop

Rob

^^ This.

 

[FrantzM]

No one is debating the amount of information in an LP. I am debating the 120 dB claim. I am lowering the bar to 100 dB and I want to see data, else let's callit an opinion. Do not present it as facts.

 

[Robh3606]

Hello Frantz

I am with you on this. That's why I brought up the Telarc 1812 from 1979. When that was first released it sent up alarm bells as far as the actual dynamic capabilities of many a cartridge and arm combo. There were not many cartridges that could track it and the actual dynamic range was in the 60 or so dB range. No where close to your 100db number. But if I remember right that 120dB number is being used out of context. That number was for the cutter head not the actual range on a playable LP

Rob

 

[ack]

I have two copies of the Telarc 1812, and I played them last weekend. Bottom line: can't track most canon bursts, thus can't assert dynamic range, but on the other hand, the orchestra itself plus those bursts I did track are undynamic, and I am getting nowhere near the level of dynamics I get from RR and other worthy LPs. It seems to me that LP is compressed, probably because of the very low frequency extension, in order perhaps not to overdrive woofers.

 

[Orb]

Either of you guys also have that on CD?
Be interesting to know its dynamic range.
Cheers
Orb

 

[ack]

Either of you guys also have that on CD?
Be interesting to know its dynamic range.
Cheers
Orb

Good question; I have it, and it surely is much more dynamic, though no woofers or panels blown up - scary for sure, but to be quite honest, I have been more scared by the sudden key strikes on track 5 of this Chesky CD (something I also demonstrated to PeterA here a while ago):

And, BTW, following these strikes, you can VERY clearly hear the elevated dither noise, which extinguishes after about 2-3 seconds. Talking about sound quality Try 6:34 into this track, and anyone's opinion that dither is absolutely innocuous may change

 

[esldude]

microstrip already posted this link a few pages ago. I think many must have overlooked it.

It gives a pretty reasonable treatment of theoretical limits to LP, and may be the thinking behind the idea 120 db might happen on an LP. But that is with a diamond LP, not vinyl. The same treatment is given vinyl and something like maybe 70 db looks possible. Considering something like 60-70 db is what is seen with some excellent vinyl and playback rigs it makes pretty good sense. Anyway worth a few minutes reading Jim Lesurf's analysis.

https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/iandm/part12/page2.html

And as it was a topic earlier in the thread his explanation of dither isn't bad either.

https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/iandm/part8/page2.html

 

[Bruce B]

I have two copies of the Telarc 1812,.

The SACD has some serious over modulation on the canon bursts.

 

[Atmasphere]

I have an LP, Soria series Verdi Requiem, don't know if its made its way to CD so far. The Dies Irae (track 2 side 1) has a dynamic range that can bring most home audio systems to their knees rather quickly.

That being from a solo oboe playing a triple pianissimo (set the volume in that passage for the right level of a real oboe playing and let 'er rip) to the full orchestra at full whack. Its pretty fun, but you have to have some efficient speakers if you want to play it at lifelike levels without problems. Its the only recording I have found of that piece that doesn't wimp out on the peaks, analog or digital.

We've had enough dynamic range for decades as far as the media is concerned! You are pretty lucky if you can actually play that range without the neighbors complaining or having to dive for the volume control to prevent damage.

 

[FrantzM]

Examples of LP with great dynamic range abound in the past few answers .. No data ...

I have no problem someone expressing the belief that a given issue copy or what-have-you of an LP crushes the CD .. I want someone to show me an LP with measured 75 dB of dynamic .. Moreover I would like someone to entertain me on the physics of the groove when you approach this number: 75 dB.. I will even grant that the resulting LP to be unplayable ... It has been said over and over that the cutting system is capable of this number ... Data is all that I am asking for. We went from 120 dB down to 75 dB BTW ...

 

[Bruce B]

We went from 120 dB down to 75 dB BTW ...

At least 75dB is more realistic!

 

[Don Hills]

... And, BTW, following these strikes, you can VERY clearly hear the elevated dither noise, which extinguishes after about 2-3 seconds. Talking about sound quality Try 6:34 into this track, and anyone's opinion that dither is absolutely innocuous may change

It doesn't work that way. Dither noise is constant. What you are hearing is almost certainly noise reduction or other non-linear process at work.
In fact, assuming you're listening at a fairly high level, you should be hearing the opposite effect - a sudden transient will engage the noise reduction mechanism in your ears, and any audible noise will be less noticeable for a second or two.

(The bones in your middle ear have muscles attached which tighten in the presence of loud sounds, reducing the bone movement and thus reducing the amount of movement transmitted. As well as external sound protection, they engage every time you shout so that you don't deafen yourself.)

(Edit: The strikes in question could also be overdubs from another take, or from a different channel / microphone, mixed in for effect.)

 

[Atmasphere]

Examples of LP with great dynamic range abound in the past few answers .. No data ...

I have no problem someone expressing the belief that a given issue copy or what-have-you of an LP crushes the CD .. I want someone to show me an LP with measured 75 dB of dynamic .. Moreover I would like someone to entertain me on the physics of the groove when you approach this number: 75 dB.. I will even grant that the resulting LP to be unplayable ... It has been said over and over that the cutting system is capable of this number ... Data is all that I am asking for. We went from 120 dB down to 75 dB BTW ...

We can cut a silent groove on a lacquer. What we don't know is what the noise floor is. On the quietest electronics, so far the electronics has been the noise floor. Due to the masking principle, the noise of the silent groove might be just below that of the electronics and we might not hear it. So conservatively its likely in the -80 to -85db area. The pressing plant seems to be where the surface noise arises; the best we have seen is at QRP (Acoustic Sounds); their noise floors seem to be very close to that of the lacquer if all went well in the pressing process.

We can put a signal on the disc that any cartridge can track at 0VU. So that suggests that we have an 80-85 db range, assuming we don't go into the noise floor. The thing is, the noise from microphone preamps, mixers and the like probably mean that the noise floor is a bit higher, and in that regard likely no different from a digital recording. Now as Don pointed out, our ears can hear into the noise floor, that being the one exception to the ear's masking rule (as I mentioned earlier, I think there is a very good reason for this having to do with survival of the species). Testing has shown that this only happens if the noise floor is composed of random elements like white noise. I've heard that we can hear 20 db into the noise floor but to me that sounds ridiculous. But we might get another 6db out of it?? So we might be able to express about a 90 db dynamic range, assuming shorted inputs on the cutterhead.

 

[microstrip]

(...) I want someone to show me an LP with measured 75 dB of dynamic ..(...)

Frantz,

No one seems interested in satisfying your precise desires. Perhaps they have read Martin Colloms in Stereophile :

Dynamics: Subjective dynamics play their part in the structure of musical pace and rhythm while carrying substantial weight in their own right. Fundamentally, dynamics are associated with the technical definition of "dynamic range," the range of allowable, cleanly handled signal between a system's noise floor and its overload point. Thus CD can have a very wide dynamic range; even with 16-bit systems, a dynamic range of 110dB is possible---ample for domestic use. However, this does not mean that CD in general has good subjective dynamics. Ironically, it does not.

Good dynamics are associated with an awareness of exciting lifelike contrasts between loud and soft sounds. Transients should be imbued with lifelike attack and sharpness, loud peaks really should sound explosively and dramatically loud. Those peaks should not be rounded, squashed, or compressed

.

 

[esldude]

Examples of LP with great dynamic range abound in the past few answers .. No data ...

I have no problem someone expressing the belief that a given issue copy or what-have-you of an LP crushes the CD .. I want someone to show me an LP with measured 75 dB of dynamic .. Moreover I would like someone to entertain me on the physics of the groove when you approach this number: 75 dB.. I will even grant that the resulting LP to be unplayable ... It has been said over and over that the cutting system is capable of this number ... Data is all that I am asking for. We went from 120 dB down to 75 dB BTW ...

The Jim LeSurf link a few posts ago will give you much of the basic physics of a groove, and the needle tracking or attempting to track it. The physics of the needle and molecular size of vinyl is where the 70 db or so in his short explanation comes from. He also writes a little about the official 0 db level for vinyl and that cartridges can track as much as 20 db or so more though physics of the cartridge will usually result in several percent distortion at such levels.

For what it is worth, in one $10k TT setup a couple years ago, I played music and measured acoustical feedback coming from the phono pre. With normal listening levels it was somewhere around -60 db or so of upper levels on discs. This was with a tubed phono and replacing it with a SS phono stage lowered the amount by 3 or 4 db. Meaning the amount of acoustical feedback was roughly the same for the tubes and the physical turntable. With a good reference level difficult to determine it seemed acoustical feedback was near or just barely above surface noise of some of the cleaner vinyl on hand. So not a certain measure of noise, but something of a data point.

 

[dmnc02]

The Jim LeSurf link a few posts ago will give you much of the basic physics of a groove, and the needle tracking or attempting to track it. The physics of the needle and molecular size of vinyl is where the 70 db or so in his short explanation comes from. He also writes a little about the official 0 db level for vinyl and that cartridges can track as much as 20 db or so more though physics of the cartridge will usually result in several percent distortion at such levels.

Unless I am missing something, the article does not establish (or assert) that 70dB is the physical limit for the dynamic range of vinyl. Instead, it states that assuming that a "reasonably good" cartridge is able to track modulation levels 20dB greater than the 0dB reference level and that the molecules of a vinyl LP have the dimension of carbon atoms, the dynamic range of LP is 110dB, although in practice the LP molecules are likely to be larger. For example, if the LP molecules were 100 times larger than carbon atoms, the dynamic range would drop to 70dB. Both the 20dB peak tracking ability and the molecule size are just more or less arbitrary assumptions to exemplify his mathematical model (which anyhow is based on additional simplifying assumptions).